Hope this isn't a can of worms, but I've been turning this over in my head for a while and thought I'd solicit a discussion.
Do apologetics of the Chrisian faith cause us to rely on the wisdom of man or external proofs rather than simply trusting Christ?
Matthew 11:25,26
25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
I Corinthians 2
2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:1-3
1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
Are apologetics unbiblical?
Are apologetics unbiblical?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
If we cast away "human reasoning" in favour of "God's revelation" we will soon find ourselves in the camp of thousands of sects with multifarious teachings, all claiming that these "truths" were "revealed" to them by God.
I don't think your quotes from Paul indicate that he gave up rationality and argument.
Acts 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the scriptures,
Acts 17:17 So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the market place every day with those who chanced to be there.
Acts 18:4 And he argued in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.
Acts 18:19 And they came to Ephesus, and he left them there; but he himself went into the synagogue and argued with the Jews.
Acts 19:9 but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyrannus.
Acts 24:25 And as he argued about justice and self-control and future judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present; when I have an opportunity I will summon you." RSV
The word I have bolded, which the RSV translated as "argue", is the Greek word "dialomomai" which means literally "talked through". Some translated it as "reasoned".
And according to the American Heritage Dictionary, "apologetics" is concerned with defense:
a-pol-o-get-ics (-pol-jetiks)n. n (used with a sing. verb).
1. The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
2. Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
The book of Acts contains seven verses in which paul makes a defense of himself or the gospel.
Paul also refers to his making a defense in I Corinthians 9:3 and
II Timothy 4:16. He also speaks specifically of making a defense of the gospel in Philippians 1:7 and Philippians 1:16.
Besides that he instructs his readers to be prepared to make a defense:
1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.
I don't think your quotes from Paul indicate that he gave up rationality and argument.
Acts 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the scriptures,
Acts 17:17 So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the market place every day with those who chanced to be there.
Acts 18:4 And he argued in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded Jews and Greeks.
Acts 18:19 And they came to Ephesus, and he left them there; but he himself went into the synagogue and argued with the Jews.
Acts 19:9 but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyrannus.
Acts 24:25 And as he argued about justice and self-control and future judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present; when I have an opportunity I will summon you." RSV
The word I have bolded, which the RSV translated as "argue", is the Greek word "dialomomai" which means literally "talked through". Some translated it as "reasoned".
And according to the American Heritage Dictionary, "apologetics" is concerned with defense:
a-pol-o-get-ics (-pol-jetiks)n. n (used with a sing. verb).
1. The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
2. Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
The book of Acts contains seven verses in which paul makes a defense of himself or the gospel.
Paul also refers to his making a defense in I Corinthians 9:3 and
II Timothy 4:16. He also speaks specifically of making a defense of the gospel in Philippians 1:7 and Philippians 1:16.
Besides that he instructs his readers to be prepared to make a defense:
1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
The book of proverbs tells us what God considers to be wisdom and reasoning from the scriptures is Paul's main apologetic, other than his testimony about actually meeting the resurrected Christ. The apostles used arguments to persuade unbelievers but they always centered around two things; The first one being the resurrection of Christ which they witnessed and second, the prophetic writings of scripture itself.
I do feel some Christians get a little too caught up in the study of apologetics and begin to trust in their own intellect instead of the power of God. This is a mis-use of knowledge. According to scripture, God has given us a sound mind so we are to use and apply wisdom properly. But a distinction needs to be made between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is simply being aquainted with various information. Wisdom is the Godly application of that knowledge. That is why the bible tells us knowledge puffs up but love edifies. Knowledge must be accompanied by love and wisdom. Otherwise, you become arrogant and are of no use to God. There are Christians who know far less than I do in general, but are more acceptable to God than me. Whenever you have lots of money, the tendancy is to spend it. Whenever you have a lot knowledge, the tendancy is to show it. Arrogance, from what I understand of God's character, is an egregious thing before our Creator. I liken it to a child that thinks himself to be more wise than his father and spouts off about any and everything as if he were an authority. In reality, the child proabably knows very little, but pride and arrogance take up the slack.
The use of apologetics is what's important here. We are called to give a defense, but with gentleness and respect. Many who practice apologetics don't practice that last part. Also, the unbeliever who asks us to make a defense is not our enemy. We are to love that person more than ourselves, accoring to the Lord. Anyone who is not arrogant is open to the grace of God through faith. Those who are arrogant run the risk of having their hearts hardened by God and those individuals will never be argued into the kingdom. It's best, in those situations, to simply wish them well and move on. I've seen hardened skeptics come to Christ, though, so it's tough to know when to call it quits. I guess the Spirit has to lead us in those circumstances.
I do feel some Christians get a little too caught up in the study of apologetics and begin to trust in their own intellect instead of the power of God. This is a mis-use of knowledge. According to scripture, God has given us a sound mind so we are to use and apply wisdom properly. But a distinction needs to be made between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge is simply being aquainted with various information. Wisdom is the Godly application of that knowledge. That is why the bible tells us knowledge puffs up but love edifies. Knowledge must be accompanied by love and wisdom. Otherwise, you become arrogant and are of no use to God. There are Christians who know far less than I do in general, but are more acceptable to God than me. Whenever you have lots of money, the tendancy is to spend it. Whenever you have a lot knowledge, the tendancy is to show it. Arrogance, from what I understand of God's character, is an egregious thing before our Creator. I liken it to a child that thinks himself to be more wise than his father and spouts off about any and everything as if he were an authority. In reality, the child proabably knows very little, but pride and arrogance take up the slack.
The use of apologetics is what's important here. We are called to give a defense, but with gentleness and respect. Many who practice apologetics don't practice that last part. Also, the unbeliever who asks us to make a defense is not our enemy. We are to love that person more than ourselves, accoring to the Lord. Anyone who is not arrogant is open to the grace of God through faith. Those who are arrogant run the risk of having their hearts hardened by God and those individuals will never be argued into the kingdom. It's best, in those situations, to simply wish them well and move on. I've seen hardened skeptics come to Christ, though, so it's tough to know when to call it quits. I guess the Spirit has to lead us in those circumstances.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
JD, I fully agree with you about the dangers of being proud and arrogant, the need to accompany knowledge with love and wisdom, and to give a defense with gentleness and respect ----- also the importance in recognising that our opponents in philosophical and theological perspectives, are not our enemies.
However, there were a couple of things you said, I think need clarification.
I think the RSV translators were wise, in this passage, to put "knowledge" in quotation marks. I suspect that Paul was not talking about ordinary knowledge here. True some people become arrogant concerning their knowledge, but knowledge per se doesn't "puff up". Paul made it clear that he was not talking about real knowledge here, but imaginary knowledge. "If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know..."
Second-century disciples differentiated between "knowledge" and "knowledge falsely so-called". They applauded the first, but warned against the second. Those who spread about the second were known as "gnostics" (Those who know).
I am concerned that so many today denigrate knowledge. I've actually heard some boast about their ignorance, and about the fact they they didn't go to university, or Bible college. They learned everything they needed right at the foot of Jesus. I have observed a greater degree of arrogance among such as these, than among the knowledgeable.
However, there were a couple of things you said, I think need clarification.
Trusting in our own intellect is trusting in the power of God! WHO is the source of our own intellect? Mother Nature? The devil? Was it not GOD who created man in HIS OWN image?I do feel some Christians get a little too caught up in the study of apologetics and begin to trust in their own intellect instead of the power of God.
Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." "Knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him. I Cor 8:1-3That is why the bible tells us knowledge puffs up but love edifies.
I think the RSV translators were wise, in this passage, to put "knowledge" in quotation marks. I suspect that Paul was not talking about ordinary knowledge here. True some people become arrogant concerning their knowledge, but knowledge per se doesn't "puff up". Paul made it clear that he was not talking about real knowledge here, but imaginary knowledge. "If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know..."
Second-century disciples differentiated between "knowledge" and "knowledge falsely so-called". They applauded the first, but warned against the second. Those who spread about the second were known as "gnostics" (Those who know).
I am concerned that so many today denigrate knowledge. I've actually heard some boast about their ignorance, and about the fact they they didn't go to university, or Bible college. They learned everything they needed right at the foot of Jesus. I have observed a greater degree of arrogance among such as these, than among the knowledgeable.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
JC wrote:
I do feel some Christians get a little too caught up in the study of apologetics and begin to trust in their own intellect instead of the power of God.
Not necessarily, Paidion. When our intellect fails to comprehend some of the deeper truths of God's word, or when our intellect disagrees with God's word, our intellect should submit to God's word.Paidion's response wrote: Trusting in our own intellect is trusting in the power of God! WHO is the source of our own intellect? Mother Nature? The devil? Was it not GOD who created man in HIS OWN image?
I do agree that God has given us minds to use for His purposes.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion, I'm mostly speaking about those who use knowledge irresponsibly. You can have tons of knowledge but very little wisdom. My point was just to draw a distinction between the two. I know what you mean though regarding Christians who are committed to stupidity. That's something I will never understand. And you're also correct in saying that these individuals are often the most arrogant. In terms of apologetics, I've heard Christians berate others in debate when it wasn't appropriate. It was clear to me that in those cases, the Christian just wanted to win the argument for the sake of winning an argument. To me, this is a dangerous use of knowledge. About being "puffed up," you may be correct. I'll look at that more closely.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: