an lds on: By What Authority?

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:09 pm

karenprtlnd wrote:I believe that those that are to follow Jesus Christ, would be considered His Church, and come under His juristiction. I feel strongly about this. That if one is to consider himself a member of His body, The Church, the NT would be fine as a general and universal authority that we all already have in common. There can be many secular denominations and groups for a million different reasons, additions, styles, traditions, etc. These are merely "pulls" of human powers of mere beliefs & principalities I think, and not of the plain and simple wording to be found in the scripture itself.

The "pull" in an LDS ward to superceed the general authority as found in scripture (even their own), can be overwhelming at times. The scripture is where we find the testimony of Christ, and being limited by the name of a disagreeable group can really get on my nerves sometimes. Those that I feel I'm just "stuck" with merely by reason of a personal address that lands in that particular ward boundry, and that you don't just get to pick, and a governing policy that's not even local. It seems just way too perocial these days. Or that I use three items (NT/OT/M) instead of just the two (NT/OT) or only the one (OT). This just does not seem reasonable enough to me. Maybe a forth facsimilie of scripture may surface one day, and I would be forced to say no also, merely because the odds were so against it being real, that it was annoying. That wouldn't mean that I would have to close the door on any scriptural discussions that I may already have going, nor be run over by it.

I don't see why a NT person, would not find an LDS person, who also holds a NT, just alot of fun.

Old men did this (and are STILL doing this), not me.
Karen,

Overall, I agree! Let's unpack this post and go a little deeper.
I believe that those that are to follow Jesus Christ, would be considered His Church, and come under His juristiction. I feel strongly about this.
I wholeheartedly agree.
That if one is to consider himself a member of His body, The Church, the NT would be fine as a general and universal authority that we all already have in common.
I agree again, the NT is our general and universal authority by which we base our actions and thoughts upon.....and, the KJV (as far as I knew until I began posting with Paidion) is the most accurate translation.
There can be many secular denominations and groups for a million different reasons, additions, styles, traditions, etc. These are merely "pulls" of human powers of mere beliefs & principalities I think, and not of the plain and simple wording to be found in the scripture itself.
I agree that religious denominations form for "a million reasons..." I think we can both attest to our own experience with unique doctrine held by our respective denominations, yours being LDS, mine being SDA, and I absolutely agree that we can and should stand on the plain and simple wording of scripture.
The "pull" in an LDS ward to superceed the general authority as found in scripture (even their own), can be overwhelming at times.
Yes, I have been taught that the LDS view is that the NT is only correct as far as it was translated correctly, so the prophets continually make new doctrine and covenants. It is my opinion that this is an excuse to change the beliefs whenever and whereever the prophet wants to, and then the people have to follow, or they are not treated as good LDS.
The scripture is where we find the testimony of Christ, and being limited by the name of a disagreeable group can really get on my nerves sometimes. Those that I feel I'm just "stuck" with merely by reason of a personal address that lands in that particular ward boundry, and that you don't just get to pick, and a governing policy that's not even local. It seems just way too perocial these days.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that we find the testimony of Jesus Christ in the NT. And we are supposed to abide in Jesus. We are supposed to abide in his word. We are NOT supposed to set our attention to building large temples such as the LDS and the Catholics have (to offer two examples).

Why do you feel you are "stuck" with a particular group of people? I realize the "governing policy" of the LDS authorizes you to attend only under their decision-making powers, but why do you submit to a man-made "governing policy" when you can go somewhere else? Is it because you don't see any Christians worshipping and fellowshipping the way they did in the book of Acts, and other books of the NT?
Or that I use three items (NT/OT/M) instead of just the two (NT/OT) or only the one (OT).


I'm not sure what you are saying, but if I had to guess, I would say that you want evangelicals to accept people who read LDS books, or at least people who include reading the BoM along with the OT/NT. I think the answer is as varied as there are evangelicals. In other words, some evangelicals will accept you and others will not. I accept you as a Christian because you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Your affiliation with LDS/wards/SLC does not mean to me that you are not a Christian. It just means that you are like other Christians who have thoughts, attitudes and beliefs that are in process. I know I don't have it all put together. And believe me, not everyone thinks I'm saved either. I could name the names of folks who think I'm not. Even the most famous well-loved evangelicals who have the most friends are perceived by someone, to be lost. Whoever disagrees with their theology and is judgemental will tell you that. But my POV is that if someone---like my LDS family and friends----I should withhold my judgement on the matter for the very simple reason that God did not make it my judgement to have. I can choose who to spend my time with, but I cannot choose who is a real Christian or not. Even so, I have become convinced in my own mind that you are a Christian--in as far as I can know that anyone is a Christian. I have come to know that by your own admission of discipleship under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. You have said that you follow Jesus Christ. That is by my definition, a Christian.

If by referring to "only the one (OT)", you mean non-Messianic Jews, then I believe we would have a problem accepting them as Christians if they don't believe in Jesus Christ. However, that does not give a Christian the right to be hateful to the Jew. I believe we need to love everyone. I believe that is taught in the NT.
Maybe a forth facsimilie of scripture may surface one day, and I would be forced to say no also, merely because the odds were so against it being real, that it was annoying. That wouldn't mean that I would have to close the door on any scriptural discussions that I may already have going, nor be run over by it.


I'm not really sure what you mean, but I think Christians have the scripture to know what Jesus wants us to think and do and say.

Jesus never spent much time discussing theology. I think we should search the scriptures because we read in the Bible to do that, but I don't see anywhere where it reads that we have to believe in Jesus AND believe in ............say the Trinity, or rapture, or soul sleep, or whatever. Of the three mentioned, the Trinity is the most important to me simply because it is a concept that helps us know the ONE who loves us so much! I think the closer we can imagine who He is, the closer we can be with Him. It's a blessing to be near Him, to understand Him, so understanding the Trinity is important to me, but not a prerequisite to being a Christian or having His grace overflowing in our lives.
I don't see why a NT person, would not find an LDS person, who also holds a NT, just alot of fun.
The body of Christ is so diverse that not everyone is "fun" to everyone else. To me, "fun" is something that one shares with a person having a personality and interests that compliment in some way. HOWEVER, NT people should ALL love everyone with the love of Jesus! I believe that the LOVE of JESUS is the "glue" that binds us in the body of Christ. Abiding in Jesus, even those with whom we have nothing on earth in common with---well, we have Jesus in common.

Have you ever met two Christian ladies who, only by knowing Jesus in their lives, share conversation about Jesus and subjects that are important to Jesus, like praying together for suffering neighbors, or like work alongside each other to help a community project, or share their money together to accoomplish a goal for missions? Then, they can honestly say (and demonstrate) that they love each other in the Lord. Some Christian ladies have nothing else in common so they probably don't think of each other as "fun," but still, the love of Jesus abounds! What do you think?
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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Post by Jill » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:29 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:48 pm

karenprtlnd wrote:Suggestions for a possible : LDS/EVNG. Dialogue. by karenprtlnd.

NT. (Revisions and translations, noted).

OT. (Jewish Publication Society comparisons, noted).

[BoM unnecessary, but delightful.)
One man left Jerusalem at 1st year Zedekiah.
No longer in area OT Jerusalem post 600AD. Nor NT Jerusalem of 0-100AD. Both independent works.


I hold Matthew and Mark as primary witness documents, including any of the original twelve.
The 14 letters of SPaul, a Jew, to be also of great intrest. Escpecially to the churches, including the LDS.
I can see for myself that The Bible is a book and history of the Jew and holy city of David, which is Jerusalem.
Ancient Isreal (50 miles by 125 miles).


OT (0-....)2500BC-400BC.
NT o-100AD approximately.
Are you asking me what I want to study?
I know a little bit about the NT.
I know nothing about the Jewish Publication Society.
I only know a tiny bit about the BoM, so is it okay if we start by studying the NT?
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:52 pm

karenprtlnd wrote:Suggestions for a possible : LDS/EVNG. Dialogue. by karenprtlnd.

I hold Matthew and Mark as primary witness documents, including any of the original twelve.
The 14 letters of SPaul, a Jew, to be also of great intrest. Escpecially to the churches, including the LDS.
Are you suggesting we discuss Matthew and Mark?
I'll try to answer your subject matter, whatever you bring up.
:)
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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mkprr
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by mkprr » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:35 pm

Karen and Selah,

Thank you both for your encouragement. I do plan on staying. And Karen I appreciate your advice. I will for the future only post on things I previously personally research. I agree there are some very ill thought out articles on fairlds.org. I'm not sure where you read in the article that the author was expecting to find journals from this one few people. In fact his point in the article I posted was more along the lines of the improbability of that happening.

Karen, I have enjoyed reading your comments and hope that you will keep writting. You remind me of Hugh Nibley who was a faithful LDS but was never shy about his opposition to church policies that he found unnecesarry.

I will be sure to present my views as my own personal views as well. I would never claim more than that. And I'll try to stay away from the word Mormon if you would prefer.

I understand you dissapointment in quotes from CS Lewis instead of Isaiah during conference talks but on the other hand I think it's nice that church leaders aren't so imbedded in an us vs them mentality that they can't quote truth from outside the church. The 13th article of faith states that we want to except good and truth where ever it comes from. "If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." That is the reason I started listening to TNP and I am very glad I did.
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Post by Jill » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:21 pm

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Post by Jill » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:03 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:03 am

Karen wrote
The most indoctinated and reindoctinating oriented "evangelical" I am not interested in. This sort of scriptural reprograming and mixed up teaching listening technique becomes irritating at best. I have enjoyed reading many of the practical study threads on the forum, yet I have informed repeatedly that many folks here have been unable to understand my posts.

I would like to continue, and apologize for my insensitivity. This is a Baptist dominant forum, but I would like to keep checking in as I continue to read and study my Bible. It is still alot of fun.
Just a comment:
Each man reads so much into these NT writings that it seems almost insurmountable to discuss without the insult and sublty of many added teachings and swayings just in a simple salutation toward a complete and unsuspecting stranger. I don't care what religion you say that your no longer involved in.
Karen,

Like you, I am not Baptist either; I am a follower of Jesus.

Risk is necessary in the process of finding someone who will discuss with compassion and patient correction---

---or as we have heard on TNP, "balance comment." Your compassionate and patient correction was welcome.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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