What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

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SamMcNear
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What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

Post by SamMcNear » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:13 am

What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy? I have seen over and over on this forum that a Mormon won't see a document as truth when it's against Mormonism. I want to know what Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy? How about the book of Mormanism and the KJV Bible, are they sacred to a Mormon?

-Sam

Jill
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Post by Jill » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:50 pm

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SamMcNear
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Re: What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

Post by SamMcNear » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:38 pm

(No one should ever be forced to read or believe anything, and always be encouraged to "Prove ye herewith" for oneself).
What does this mean? Are you saying you don't have to believe in your holy writting and documents?

Sam

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Post by Jill » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:39 pm

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SamMcNear
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Re: What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

Post by SamMcNear » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:20 am

That's interesting thanks for sharing. I would agree with you that the OT + NT Bible are
the greatest little set in existance on the earth today
but I would not include the BoM. When one compares the two books (The Bible and BoM), one should be able to see that they are not in the same category. For example, while many Mormons teach that there is archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon, in fact, there is none. No cities unique to the Book of Mormon have ever been located, period. While some may insist that cities have been found, the fact that the Book of Mormon contains no maps is only one indication that the alleged cities have never been located. I ask you, "If the Book of Mormon is a record of real history, like the Bible, why hasn't the Mormon church published any maps?" (Note that while individual Mormons may have published maps, the church itself has never authorized an official map of Book of Mormon lands.)

I also would say that I can not find experiential “proof” that the BoM is true. I know in Moroni 10:4-5 we are instructed to pray about the Book of Mormon to find out if it is true. Generally, the answer expected by Mormons is a "burning in the bosom," a heart-felt emotional experience. I would have to say that I have had that "burning in the bosom" about Jesus and the Bible for more than 20 years and it is still strong and I don't believe the Book of Morman is true. But I have more than a burning in the bossom to tell me I'm in the truth. I have passed many tests that the Bible gives that tells me that I'm saved, and will have eternal life, and that I live in the real "Truth". To name only a few of those tests, Read the book of 1 John, it has 4 reoccurring tests through out that book. I think you will find them very interesting. A "burning in the bosom" is one of the tests it talks about if that burning is the true Sprit of God.

Here are the tests and the scriptures so you can look them up in you own Bible. (Note to be a true Christian you need to pass all 4 of these tests, not just 1, 2 or 3 but all 4. Also these tests are confined to the Bible and don't carry over to any other books)

Test 1 – Look in 1 John 2:15 & 22-23; 4:3; 5:1
Summary = Do we have the correct believes about Jesus and who He is?

Test 2 – Look in 1 John 2:3-4 & 29; 3:6-10; 5:3 &18;
Summary = Do we live a lifestyle of righteousness and obedience? Do we keep Jesus’ commandments? Do we fight not to commit sin? Or if you sin and enjoy it without regret you are not of God.

Test 3 – Look in 1 John 2:5-11; 3:10 & 14-20; 4:7-8
Summary = Do we love our brother and one another?

Test 4 – Look in 1 John 2:20 & 27; 4:13; 5:6-10
Summary = Do we have the spirit of God within us? Do we have the witness of the spirit ("the burning in the bosom")?



The biblical approach to truth is clear. Though we are called to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17), the Bible nowhere teaches that prayer is the only test for truth. We cannot trust the feelings of our hearts (Proverbs 14:12; 28:26; Jeremiah 17:9), nor can we trust every spiritual witness (1 John 4:1-6) only the true Spirit of God. Rather, we are called to be like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, who searched the Scriptures to test even what the apostle Paul was preaching. They are therefore said to be more noble than the Thessalonians. The biblical test for truth focuses on the Bible only as our standard (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17) not a book to come such as the BoM. And the witness of the Holy Spirit will never contradict the word he inspired the Bible (2 Peter 1:21).

I ask you my Mormon friend: How do you know that witness you have is the Holy Ghost? I have heard other Mormons respond by saying “That an unholy spirit would not bear witness to such a good and moral religious system”. May I say the Jehovah's Witnesses also say they have a good and morals system.

I say these things in hope you truely think about it. We must always search for Truth, that includes me!

WOW I wrote a book, I must have been on a roll.

-Sam

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Post by Jill » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:29 pm

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Homer
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Re: What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

Post by Homer » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:44 pm

Hi Sam; blessings to you!

You wrote:
Test 1 – Look in 1 John 2:15 & 22-23; 4:3; 5:1
Summary = Do we have the correct believes about Jesus and who He is?

Test 2 – Look in 1 John 2:3-4 & 29; 3:6-10; 5:3 &18;
Summary = Do we live a lifestyle of righteousness and obedience? Do we keep Jesus’ commandments? Do we fight not to commit sin? Or if you sin and enjoy it without regret you are not of God.

Test 3 – Look in 1 John 2:5-11; 3:10 & 14-20; 4:7-8
Summary = Do we love our brother and one another?

Test 4 – Look in 1 John 2:20 & 27; 4:13; 5:6-10
Summary = Do we have the spirit of God within us? Do we have the witness of the spirit ("the burning in the bosom")?
I liked that except the last "Test 4" which is confusing to me. I do not know what the "witness of the Spirit/burning in the bosom" is about. Were you comparing the Christian experience of the Spirit to the "burning in the bosom" the LDS speak of? To me the most reliable indicator that we have the Spirit is obedience:

Acts 5:32 (New King James Version)
32. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”


In the Greek of Acts 5:32 the receiving of the Spirit precedes the obedience which is ongoing. And John seems to echo Peter, repeatedly referring to obedience as a test in 1 John.

The "burning in the bosom" seems to be very subjective. Do you see having the Spirit as evidenced mainly by a feeling? The feeling I get from the Spirit most often seems to be an uncomfortable one when I haven't done as I ought to do. Like being poked with a sharp stick (figuratively).

God bless you in your labor for Him!

Homer

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Post by Jill » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:31 pm

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SamMcNear
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Re: What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

Post by SamMcNear » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:56 am

For me Truth is simple; if God says it then it is true. How do we know if God said it. We know if the Bible says it then it’s true for the Bible is Gods word. Truth never contradicts others truths. The Bible is truth so if something is true then it will not contradict the Bible or Gods words.

To say crying will show you that you’re in the truth or have the Holy Ghosts witness is silly. That’s like saying every time you are scared you had a truthful reason to be scared. I have gotten scared at seeing a shadow only to find out it was a chair. Holy Ghost Truth does not come from feelings such as a crying emotion. Many times I cried and found out later I was wrong about what I cried about. I found out that a goose bump feeling can come from lies as well.
Several scriptures show the evidence that you need to know you have the Holy Ghost in you.
1. You know that you have the Holy Ghost in you, if your life shows the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Ghost) and doesn’t want the things of the flesh.

Galatians 5:16-26 KJV
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections F12 and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Ephesians 5:3-20 KJV
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. F15 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

2. Another way you know that you have the Holy Ghost in you is if you believe in Jesus and His ways enough to follow them with you whole life.
1 John5: 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness (the Holy Ghost) in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

There are more Biblical tests to know if the spirit is in you. But these are all I have time to look up now.


-Sam

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SamMcNear
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Re: What Documents do Mormons say are sacred and trustworthy?

Post by SamMcNear » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:04 am

Homer,

Yes, I was comparing the Christian experience with that of LDS. Why? Because I feel the LDS use similar terms as most Christians. Yet the witness that teh LDS usually get is that of the spirits of dead relatives or an experience from a LDS sacred location. They get a witness from these things which some say is from God or the Holy Spirit. I was only trying to point out that the burning in the bosom needs to be truthfully from the Holy Spirit. I only put it that way because of whom I'm talking to which is an LDS member.

I think that the LDS church can't compel me with the burning in the bosom stories because I have my own and I don’t believe in the BoM. I know the Holy Spirit lives in me and I can say this because I have the witness of the Bible and it's tests not just a story that can't be backed up by Biblical truth. My story is many stories, practically a story everyday. God speaks to me (I know it's Him because it doesn't contradict His word or the Bible) and I do what He says and amazing things happen.

Like the time I traveled to Japan and got off the wrong subway stop to find myself out in the middle of nowhere. We (I was with a few others) couldn’t read Japanese so signs were no good. So we prayed God help us find our way. We were on our way to smuggle Bibles into China. God told one of us very clearly to walk down the steps and we bumped into an English speaking Japanese man (very very rare in that part of Japan) who helped us get back on the right subway. The interesting thing is he was the only man in the whole train station and the odds that he would speak English, wow. I think God made us get off at the wrong stop. We kept in touch with Him and were able to shared Jesus with Him. This is just 1 of many stories. This one just popped in my head so I shared it.

Also as you can see in my above post I gave some other tests to know about test #4 and answer the question about a feelings.

The obedience test you stated is a great one thanks for adding it.


Sam

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