Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

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mkprr
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Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by mkprr » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:33 pm

Seeing as that there was a growing discussion on another post about Joseph Smith's involvement in Money digging and the occult I thought it'd be best to dedicate a thread to the topic. To start off I have pasted a few posts from the discussion going on at "how can you trust the Book of Mormon"

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By jriccitelli
The God of the Hebrews severly condemns Sorcery, divining and magic practices throughout scripture. The magicians of Pharoahs court, Jezebel, Manasseh, Simon the magician, etc., all are condemned. Gods Word goes into exhaustive detail and effort to show that it is not by mans effort or wisdom, as is sorcery, it is when God is called upon and trusted in for guidance, that truth comes. Those that seek 'Him' in Spirit and truth. Moses allready had been spoken to by God, the staff was a common object carried by many shepherds and people in the wilderness, for livestock, for walking, a wilderness weapon. The staff was not a diving rod, neither was aarons rod.The staff miracle was one of 'many', miracles shown to Moses, as was his hand turning leprous, then the water turning to blood, frogs, flies, locusts all these things were done by God as direct insults and challanges to the sorcery, magic and creature worship of the Egyptians. Moses himself attributes all power unto God and recieves no credit for personal abilities or power to objects such as a staff. The staff was no more a source of divining than the lampstand, the showbread, or the Ark itself. The staff of Aaron was a memorial, a witness (As Jacobs pile of stones) to Gods working. The two stones on the breastplate that Aaron wore were a 'memorial' to Gods judgements (Exodus 28:12 "You shall put the two stones on the shoulder pieces of the ephod, [as] stones of memorial for the sons of Israel, and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD on his two shoulders for a memorial) A reminder to the Holiness of God and His guidance over the heart of of Aaron (Ex.28:30) The choosing and making of the garmets and breastplate of Aaron fills a whole chapter of Exodus and comes directly from Gods mouth to Moses and is constructed and made in accordance with Gods direct words. As was the tabernacle, screen, bronze alter etc. Joseph found his seer stone while digging in a hole for gold, and Olivers rod was a rod used 'for the purpose of divining'. Niether had a divine order to use such common objects and both objects were being at the time used for money digging, a little different than Moses and Aaron. It does not fit that God who equates mediums and diviners with Demons and witchcraft, to use such a person to restore revelation and truth. Especially after condemning practicioners of such among His people to death. There is so many verses condemning participation in sorcery, because it is the art of communing with demons, and many recieve revelation and messages in this way, just as Mannaseh;
2 Kings 21:6 He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking. Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." So how can you trust the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith carried a 'Jupiter tailsman during his time as 'prophet'', it was even on his person at his death as Emma has testified.
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon
by mkprr on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:27 pm

I agree with you 100 percent that witchcraft, divination, and sorcery and magic are damnable sins. The Book of Mormon and D & C and the angel Moroni are also in agreement with that.

What source documents can you provide to back up your claim about Joseph Smiths use of a Jupiter Talisman? I don't ask that to be rude or accuse you of fabricating a story. I have looked into it in the past so I know there are some reasons why people believe he did but I didn't find any of the sources to be credible. I want you to know that I appreciate you taking time to talk with me and am certainly more than willing to look into it again. I would find it difficult to harmonize Joseph Smith's involvement in magic with his calling as prophet if he never repented of it.

Let me know what you can find. I have been searching the internet as well but can't find any accounts from Emma to back up this claim, the only account I can find is of her adopted son who was 15 when she died, who was never affiliated with the LDS church as far as I can tell, and who was trying to make money by selling items that he claimed were Joseph Smiths over 50 years after Emma had passed away. His testimony of what Joseph had on him at his death contradicts the legal documents made by the attorney who inspected his body at his death listing what Joseph had on him when he was killed. As far as I can tell, there are also no accounts by any first hand witnesses of Joseph Smith using this Jupiter Talisman. I of course haven't read all there is to be read on the subject though and am interested in learning more.

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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon
by jriccitelli on Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:31 am

I possess a nice collection of reference materials 'in storage' now while I finish remodeling our home, my 'memory' says I've seen enough evidence. I have researched 'alot' of these claims and manuscripts, I even went to Utah in search of books and information. But I found Utah Lighthouse ministry is a 'lighthouse' of resources they are credible and honest. There is some more info. than I can locate now on Josephs 'Tailsman' medallion but this address by Reed Durham is real, and hard to dispute; this is from Utah lighthose ministrys online resources;
Dr. Reed Durham, who was director of the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah and president of the Mormon History Association. Dr. Durham, apparently not realizing the devastating implications of his discovery, announced this important find in his presidential address before the Mormon History Association on April 20, 1974; ...All available evidence suggests that Joseph Smith the Prophet possessed a magical Masonic medallion, or talisman, which he worked during his lifetime and which was evidently on his person when he was martyred...(Mormon Miscellaneous, published by David C. Martin, vol. 1, no. 1, October 1975, pp. 14-15).
I think there is more than enough evidence that Joseph was very involved in the clearly decietful practice of money digging, that is taking some poor saps money and 'pretending' to be able to divine buried treasure on their property. I would think Joseph was 'simply pretending' without the use of divining but his use of peepstones also seems to indicate a strong belief in being 'led by these objects'. Oliver, Martin Harris, Pratt and others in Josephs company also were involved in divining and money digging. Joseph was arrested and tried for money digging in 1826. 'Moses and Paul' were not involved with the occult, or 'deceit for gain' enterprises. Paul and Moses zeal for God caused them to go to far, and commit murder, yet it seems that it was 'because' of their zeal that God choose them, not despite it. The 'main objective' of the occult is to 'decieve', to give false messages, horoscopes, palm readers, crystal balls, etc.,are used as 'mediums' to demonic messages. Why would 'God' break His own Law to (supposedly) reinstall His own Law? Would God be guilty of seeking a medium? For God has said; As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. You shall consecrate yourselves therefore and be holy, for I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 20:6)
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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by mkprr » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:38 pm

I agree that there is good evidence for Joseph being involved in money digging. I disagree in your conclusions that this would make him unworthy of being called to serve God after repentance. Money digging, as you stated, was a widespread practice in Joseph’s time. Prominent Christians and otherwise respected members of society somehow saw no problem reconciling the practice with their faith. (although many people regarded the practice as foolish or evil) Smith’s involvement in treasure seeking was foolish, greedy, and in my opinion spiritually dangerous and therefore sinful. We have no shortage of examples however from the old and new testaments of men who were once involved in sin who God later performed a great work through. I assume you believe the atonement can make a sinful man clean, what in your mind is different about Joseph’s early money digging?

Joseph Smith, even as a young man, attributed the things revealed to him through his seer stone to be by the power of God. He didn’t see himself as being involved in sorcery or turning to mediums. The ancients used the Urim and Thummim to determine the will of God, the apostles cast lots to find out who should replace Judas, Joseph Smith looked into a stone to seek guidance from God. All of these things to me seem silly in their own right and most definitely have similarities to heathen practices, but when sanctioned by God they are legitimate.

I enjoy the Tanners’ work at Utah Lighthouse ministries as well. They are one sided but they bring up issues that I think are important and they cite their documents well.

Reed Durham’s talk however is exactly the one I was talking about in my previous post. He had a single late third hand account as his source. He got this from Charlie Bidaman’s certificate that was made for the purpose of selling various items to a collector of LDS memorabilia. He certified the talisman as follows:

"This piece came to me through the relationship of my father, Major L. C. Bidamon, who married the Prophet Joseph Smith's widow, Emma Smith. I certify that I have many times heard her say, when being interviewed, and showing the piece, that it was in the Prophet's pocket when he was martyred at Carthage”

Charlie Bidaman was 15 when Emma passed away, it was more than 50 years after Emma’s death that he made this claim and he wasn’t friendly to the LDS church. I have searched through numerous anti-lds websites to see if anyone has come up with anything to back up his claims. So far I haven’t found a thing. Most notable perhaps is that careful notes were taken at the time of Joseph’s death and published in 1885 itemizing what Joseph had on his person when he was killed. The medallion isn’t mentioned. Here is the list:

"Received, Nauvoo, Illinois, July 2, 1844, of James W. Woods, one hundred and thirty- five dollars and fifty cents in gold and silver and receipt for shroud, one gold finger ring, one gold pen and pencil case, one penknife, one pair of tweezers, one silk and one leather purse, one small pocket wallet containing a note of John P. Green for $50, and a receipt of Heber C. Kimball for a note of hand on Ellen M. Saunders for one thousand dollars, as the property of Joseph Smith. - Emma Smith."


I am however still interested in this subject because if it turns out Joseph Smith was turning to sources other than God for spiritual strength after establishing the Church this would be significant. I just ordered a book written by a historian who I find to be fairly neutral in his portrayal of LDS history that I have heard argues, as you do, that Joseph Smith practiced magic rituals until late in his life and I’m interested in seeing what arguments he has to make.

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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:03 am

I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasures.... Smith, and his father, with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house.... Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found—he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see....After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, ... and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent.... In a short time they returned ... Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living.... He also made arrangements with my son Alva Hale, to go up to Palmyra, and move his (Smith's) furniture &c. to this place.... Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them.... The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods! (Affidavit of Isaac Hale, as printed in the Susquehanna Register, May 1, 1834).
It does not matter if Joseph Smith repented of money digging 'after' recieving the plates, Joseph was using occultic practices 'when' he had his 'vision', he was 'still' involved so when he discovered the plates, and he was arrested for money digging 'during the time' he was waiting to recieve the plates, he was still money digging 'after' hearing from the angel Moroni or Nephi. Joseph used the same occultic method for translating the plates as he did for money digging, and he used the 'same' peepstone(s) he used to decipher the message as he used to money dig. The 'Urim and Thummin' has been interpeted by 'Smith' to be peepstones, but this is blasphemous, I allready gave the chap. in Exodus to which the whole breastplate was described, the priests did not look into the breastplate to recieve revelations.
Last edited by jriccitelli on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:43 am

Many Mormons say, as you also stated that; "I disagree in your conclusions that this would make him unworthy of being called to serve God after repentance".
It is one thing for ignorant 'christians' to practice such ungodly things, but quite another for God to use someone that is practicing sorcery and divination to wipe off 1900 yrs. of Christianity, completly remove and change most every biblical doctrine known to exist, and replace them all with many doctrines never heard before on earth.
You asked; ...the atonement can make a sinful man clean what in your mind is different about Joseph’s early money digging?
Joseph was either; A. 'Pretending' to find money on peoples property (Therefore trying to purposely fraud people)
B. He actually thought the divining rods, peep stones, and staring into a hat would guide him to the treasure (Therefore practicing and or seeking occultic guidance)
C. He thought he had the gift (of a Medium) to make said objects work (Same as practicing Sorcery), or
D. He thought 'God was guiding the peep stone' and rod, etc.
No where does God give messages through peepstones', or divining rods, or other practices and 'objects' associated with mediums and witchcraft; Therefore Joseph must have been decieved and unable to discern between the occult and God.
Why would God 'reward' or 'answer' Josephs occult practices (the motive being to find buried treasure) by rewarding such behavior with finding 'golden plates' (Again never really seen by any 'credible' witness'. The the buried treasure disappearing again back into the earth, exactly as Josephs other treasure seeking storys went)
God never 'rewards' occultic behavior, in scripture all occultic practice results in condemnation of the people involved, (Pharoah, Saul, Jezebel, Manassah, Simon of Samaria, etc.) As I said, God would be guilty of using sorcery if he used Josephs peep stone or hat to reveal messages.
If this were true, all followers of Christ should go get peepstones, hats, and crystal balls to seek out Gods guidance! No this is all sin, and this is not the same sin as some patriarchs commited (Sara, Abraham, Jacob, David) none of the patriachs were involved with seeking divination or the practice of Sorcery, the purpose which is to seek 'guidance' or messages, the Hebrews knew that by seeking after or using mediums, was the exact opposite of seeking Gods name. They were not invoking Gods name. Saul consolted the witch 'after' God 'refused to answer' him. People have to be pretty naive not to know christianitys stand on witchcraft and sorcery, so Joseph cannot claim he thought God was guiding his peepstone, without admitting ignorance. Although all men have sinned God certainly seeks out honorable and righteous men (Noah, Moses, David, Jeremiah, Daniel, Mary, Simeon) and those zealous for God (Moses, Saul, Peter, Stephen) for His purposes of revelation. Joseph Smith 'said' he was seeking God but was at the 'same time' of his being led by 'angels' and 'finding' golden plates Joseph was in court on charges of 'glass looking' (crystal gazing for profit). Joseph pleaded guilty to the charges which would include 'pretending to find money'. Joseph told Emma Smiths father Issac that he would change his ways and start working, so Issac let Joseph live on his property with Emma, yet Issac found Joseph not working as he said he would, but found Joseph sitting staring into a hat with his peepstone in it 'translating' plates that werent there. This, at least to me, dosen't sound like repentance. (Sounds like an excuse not to work) Emmas father commented that Joesph used the hat and stone to translate the (Book of Mormon) plates in the same exact way Joseph used as a medium to search for buried money. See previous post;
Last edited by jriccitelli on Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by mkprr » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:52 pm

Sorry I still haven’t replied. I haven’t dusted my feet from this conversation or anything :) I am reading a rather thick book on the subject and also researching as much online wherever I can find in depth discussions on this topic. Before I write much more I want to be sure I have a good idea of what I’m talking about. Stay tuned.

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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by backwoodsman » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:34 am

mkprr wrote:I disagree in your conclusions that this would make him unworthy of being called to serve God after repentance.
The obvious question that raises is, Did he repent?

Peter Cartwright has some interesting first-hand accounts of Joseph Smith and his followers in his autobiography, "The Backwoods Preacher," which can be downloaded or read online at either Archive.org or Google Books. Look for Chapter 22, "Mormonism;" you can also search for several other mentions in the book.
http://www.archive.org/details/backwood ... 00cartiala
http://books.google.com/books?id=jIEYUwtFNigC

Most Mormons I've known have been exemplary in character, family values, etc., to the point of putting many Christians to shame. But if Peter Cartwright's and many other eyewitness accounts are to be believed, that clearly wasn't true of Joseph Smith and his earlier followers.

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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by Jill » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:01 pm

[quote="mkprr"]...I enjoy the Tanners’ work at Utah Lighthouse ministries as well. They are one sided but they bring up issues that I think are important and they cite their documents well... [/quote]

FYI. Lighthouse Ministries sounds vaguely familiar, but completely unrelated to any venue of the Mrs.Young-Tanners favorite stumpping topics. Living Stream Ministries however is Watchman Nee and Witness Lee's works combined (The Local Churches). Summit Lighthouse stems from the work of Mark and Elizabeth Claire Prophet (CUT: Church Universal and Triumphant).

POint: What would Ms.Young-Tanner's views have anything to do with any personal views here,

(Off topic. Conceed Point).

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Re: Joseph Smith, Money Digging and the Occult

Post by Jill » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:38 pm

The work of Mark and Elizabeth Claire Prophet, of our day, have works of metephysical persons including one named: St.Germain, who claims to have had the ability to make Gold. Elizabeth Claire Prophet is of a Roman Catholic childhood and frustration culminating in "channeling" many "ascended masters" and who's community in the 1980's was up on the Forbes property somewhere in Montana. I find this an unusual point, but a possible valid one. Something also about the Gold Rush of 1848 (and missing the civil wars of 1860, same as the salt lake city groups leaving the east in 1846 just after the murders of the boy and his brother the year of "the great disappointment" of 1844. SDA followed, as well as the JW's.)

kp/.

The Irish have a "somewhere over the rainbow" lore, and the coined term "money diggers" just as easily might have been gold miners, as is more readily seen along the oregon rivers, even still. Bad? I dont know.

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