an lds view of: The Church, current. Its people.

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selah
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by selah » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:15 pm

Hi Karen!

I am so glad to have found you! I have thought about you and prayed for you sometimes too, ever since I first heard you on TNP radio program--oh maybe a couple of years ago? 18 months ago? Anyway, I was hoping to find you on this forum. I have wanted in for a long time and finally made it last week.

Karen, if you would like to, I would love to dialogue with you about LDS subjects. I just read your thread called "LDS view of the Church" and note your comment on a given day, to say this thread "...could be about LDS people currently living. Its people." This is actually a great starting place for me because my son is LDS and I would like to understand him better. He always shows me kindness and respect but I also feel distance. I long for fellowship. Do you know what I mean?

I have a question right away. I'll key it in and see if you want to answer it.

Why do LDS people pray with their arms folded across their chests? Is that a family tradition, instructed by the local "ward" or a worldwide practice?

I realize that question may seem like a "what is your favorite color" question, but hey, you have to start somewhere, right? :D

I hope you want to write me. I have not had time to read all of the threads on the LDS Board, but hope you will write me soon. You are one major reason that I got on this forum!

One in the faith,
SueAnn* p.s. oh...I am not LDS but like you, consider myself to be a disciple of Jesus Christ too.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:47 pm

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Last edited by Jill on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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selah
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by selah » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:15 pm

Hi Karen,

Great to hear from you! I'm surprised you remember me from the show. I've mostly been "anonymous from Oregon" but when I registered to get on this forum, I decided to go "out there." Like Paul's requested prayers in Ephesians 6:19, "...that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly...that in it I may speak boldy, as I ought to speak." :oops: Okay, I'm overcoming shyness ;)

I'm glad you can get online; anytime is great. I read your thread named something like, "Questions and Answers" where you were somewhat "drilled" with Q&As. Thanks for answering my question about folded arms during prayer. I don't know if you want me to ask another question or share my thoughts about your answer. Someday, I would like to discuss the folded arms Q&A but, if I remember correctly, this stream is about contemporary LDS people and how they live. So I should stick to this subject? I am unsure where to begin because this is your thread and your church. I'm just an outsider looking in from time to time.

Saying "looking in from time to time" reminds me of when my son got married ten years ago. I was invited to the SLC temple so my younger children and I flew to Utah where we were relegated to the first floor temple corner, in which any "unworthy" family member or friend was welcome to watch my son and his beautiful bride walk through a door and into an off-limits portion of the temple. They were "sealed for all time and eternity." (Scriptural references to this topic purposefully ommitted :) )

I remember my son's kind voice as he explained that although I had flown all the way there, I could not go any further or actually see his wedding ceremony. The issue of "worthiness" was explained. I took no offense, but would be remiss to say that I did not want to witness my son getting married. Moreover, I was thankful to be near him and his bride. Apparently, my son had planned a church representative to stay with my children and I, because I remember a bishop having a very candid and non-offensive conversation with me. As he was not with us the entire time that we were in the room, I sat quietly and then, spent the weekend walking temple square and getting to know my daughter's-in-law 5th generation family. I had plenty to think about: worthiness, acceptance, family and doctrinal differences.

I have many things to say to you Karen, as you are now the one and only LDS who is in discussion with me on issues of God. Not to say that my son would not! :D No, when I visit (rarely due to distance, etc.) he and I always take some time to speak of things of the Lord! :D You know what I just thought of? Maybe I could invite him to join "our" conversation. :idea:

Well, I await your comments. In the meantime, I plan to read more of your threads and eventually would like to share in terms of what I understand the Bible to say. I will wait though and find a better time and more appropriate thread for my thoughts.

God bless you today :P
SueAnn*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by selah » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:20 pm

ahhh, it was "Strait Forward Questions" that I read. gotta run now but will read more asap 8-)

SueAnn*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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darinhouston
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by darinhouston » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:24 pm

SueAnn wrote:You know what I just thought of? Maybe I could invite him to join "our" conversation.
Let me just say I love the spirit of this conversation. I think this would be a wonderful idea. Please pm me if you have any issues getting him "on" the forum. We've had a lot of nuisance registrations from spammers and it's hard to identify real people sometimes.

Jill
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Post by Jill » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:20 pm

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selah
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by selah » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:55 am

Sue Ann "selah",
Hey Karen, how did you know that Selah is part of my name? ;)
it is fun that anyone is actually reading my stuff.


How very brave of you to persevere through quiet months of posting! You know, I admire that in you a lot!
The LDS do not understand, I don't think, the scriptural fervor, and necessity for excruciating accuracy, when trying to communicate a foreign idea. They assume you are warring and hatefull and fighting or something. It has just not been that safe yet to speak. The LDS can be so casual and simple in their "just going to church", that they are failing to "give answer for their faith", to become more accurate, and in find something universally conveyable about thier Faith. This has been a real challenge.
I really would like to believe that other LDS's besides you have "scriptural ferver." Have you not met ANYONE from your belief system who has this?!

Okay, from your reading, I am putting two and two together and get that you don't feel safe to talk to LDS about evangelical subjects because LDS "assume you are warring and hateful and fighting or something." I hope I understood you correctly! Anyway, I trust you will let me know if I'm wrong. Assuming I understood you, then why do you suppose they react that way? Have you asked them what they are thinking/feeling when you speak up?

Karen, I am trying to keep my statements to the topic of current LDS life, but I have to compare us a little bit. When I was in the SDA church (growing up) I began asking questions at around ten years old and oh my goodness, that was hard! "They" reacted the same way you say LDS do. Do you want to know what I think is their rationale for feeling "warring and hateful and fighting or something" uncomfortable? Do you want to know what I think we can do about that?

How do YOU perceive LDS to view themselves (and outsiders)? I see that YOU perceive LDS to be somewhat "casual and simple," but do you think THEY see THEMSELVES that way?
casual and simple in their "just going to church"
Karen, this phrase reminds me of your answer to my question about prayer. You said that praying with arms folded across the chest is a habit. "Just going to church" is a habit too.

What, do you suppose, would foster LDS habits? Keep in mind sister, I am very aware that SDA, Baptist, Catholic, Charismatics and every other denomination/religion under the sun has developed and maintains habits too. However, you seem to indicate that there are very few LDS, if any, (besides you) who break the habits. What are you searching for? Are you satisfied with LDS doctrine? You don't sound satisfied with the habits. It looks like you break the mold, so to speak, because you seem eager to search the scriptures and ask questions. So is the current LDS church NOT eager to search the scriptures and ask questions or would you say that they simply sit still and listen to church leadership and then do as they are told...I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking for your viewpoint.
to become more accurate, and in find something universally conveyable about thier Faith.
Can you say more about the quote above? What needs to become more accurate? Are you saying there is NOT something universally conveyable about LDS? Is this your POV about LDS? I would guess that the LDS church leadership would say there is, in fact, a universally conveyable message, although I personally don't know what it is. I mean I can guess but I don't really know.
I would like to learn to debate Homer or darinhouston for instance, and try and get just one foriegn point across, but have no skills to do so. It's pretty funny. This may be one of the major LDS/Evangelical communication barriers at present.
I think your communication skills are pretty savvy. It's not communication skills that are lacking; it's recognition of authority. I'm not going to speak for Homer or darinhouston, but I will speak for myself. If you were trying to get a foreign point across to me, we would both need to agree on a most FOUNDATIONAL PRECEPT. That is, by what AUTHORITY do we receive truth?

If you could convince me that your source of information is True, then getting foreign points across becomes a matter of discovery. Fun! But who wants to discover stuff they believe is coming from a place they believe is false? See, you have to convince me (or your listener) that you have the source of truth. THEN, you can get your foreign points across! :) So sometime, I would like for you to defend your source. What evidence can you provide?
If, "are LDS practices safe" is a worry, I'm always keeping my eyes open. I think they are both safe and fun, on the ward level.
So I understand you to say that LDS practices are safe and fun on the ward level. Well, are you saying there is a level where LDS practices are dangerous?
It is entirely a "lay" body, merely taking turns, with no professional clergy or church leadership outside of a policy or lesson manual, so keep that in mind.
8-) Now this is really cool! 8-) This information agrees with my Authority, the Bible. So....sister! We have unity on this! Wow! a place to start... :)

I have visited LDS churches (wards) so I have witnessed your style of meetings. I find no fault in your style, nor in your "lay" leadership. When one is motivated by something other than money (salary) I respect that very much. I go to a "home church." About 30 families from all over the area meet in different member's homes for potluck, Bible reading, prayer, singing, fellowship, baptism and communion. The brothers come with a scriptural reading and teaching point and other brothers and sisters come with songs, or offer verses/perspectives about the main scriptural reading/topic.
If a member says that Quetziquatal was Jesus Christ, for instance, or that the 10 lost tribes of Israel are out in outerspace just now, keep in mind I've heard worse by just visting a local Four Square Gospel Fellowship, like bar codes on our foreheads will be both the mark of the beast and the signal that end of the entire earth is near.


Someone was either immature, overzealous, unbalanced or worse! Oh and hey, I think I visited that same FSGF! :? (just kidding...)
TNP topics have been very cool for LDS folks while driving...


Do you know other LDS folks who listen to TNP? others besides yourself?

I am willing to talk about just about anything you pick up on, but I am really interested in AUTHORITY. I think of it like the FOUNDATION. If one has the right foundation, they can successfully build on it. I have wanted to dig into this with my son but we have not done so. Tonight I called him on the phone and invited him into the forum. He got online and I think he read the thread. (I had to get off the phone :cry: ) So today I hope to add one to your number, Karen, another LDS who fervently seeks Truth and braves TNP!

Good night sister!
SueAnn* (you can call me Selah if you want to ;) )
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by selah » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:33 am

If a member says that Quetziquatal was Jesus Christ, for instance, or that the 10 lost tribes of Israel are out in outerspace just now, keep in mind I've heard worse by just visting a local Four Square Gospel Fellowship, like bar codes on our foreheads will be both the mark of the beast and the signal that end of the entire earth is near.

Someone was either immature, overzealous, unbalanced or worse! Oh and hey, I think I visited that same FSGF! (just kidding...)
Karen,

I woke up this morning wondering if FSGF readers might feel slighted by my response so I want to clarify my attempt at a humorous response. For the sensitive reader, I was not attempting to be critical of FSGF (and I didn't think you Karen, were either).

When you compared "outerspace" types of beliefs coming out of Mormonism to "beast(ly)" types of beliefs coming out of FSGF, you were using exaggerations to make a point, yes? The point being that---hypothetically, or in fact--- other belief systems besides your own may spread false teachings too. Yes?

I believe that every denomination and/or religion that I have studied, investigated and/or visited has some element of fanaticism, some more than others.

And I will extrapolate from this and surmise that we should all be ever watchful. Like you stated,
I'm always keeping my eyes open.
too.

So without a desire to harm Four Square's, I agree with you that seekers of truth may hear unusual and false teachings. In my opinion, this fact supports my assertion that we seekers must know and trust our source of authority. This seems so logical to me!

How will we know the counterfit if we do not know the genuine?! So we agree on a second point. :) We are both watchful to discern truth from error.

Love to all,
SueAnn*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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darinhouston
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:23 pm

karen wrote:If a member says that Quetziquatal was Jesus Christ, for instance, or that the 10 lost tribes of Israel are out in outerspace just now, keep in mind I've heard worse by just visting a local Four Square Gospel Fellowship, like bar codes on our foreheads will be both the mark of the beast and the signal that end of the entire earth is near.
I understand what you're saying about some evangelicals, and agree -- but, just for the record, if someone is saying Quetziquatal was Jesus Christ, that is far more dangerous to the Faith than any odd (and likely wrong) teachings about marks on foreheads, etc.
SueAnn wrote:I think your communication skills are pretty savvy. It's not communication skills that are lacking; it's recognition of authority. I'm not going to speak for Homer or darinhouston, but I will speak for myself. If you were trying to get a foreign point across to me, we would both need to agree on a most FOUNDATIONAL PRECEPT. That is, by what AUTHORITY do we receive truth?
Then I will speak for myself, and say that I wholeheartedly agree. This is the fundamental point we must start from.

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selah
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Re: (An) LDS view of The Church, current.

Post by selah » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:52 pm

karen wrote:
If a member says that Quetziquatal was Jesus Christ, for instance, or that the 10 lost tribes of Israel are out in outerspace just now, keep in mind I've heard worse by just visting a local Four Square Gospel Fellowship, like bar codes on our foreheads will be both the mark of the beast and the signal that end of the entire earth is near.


I understand what you're saying about some evangelicals, and agree -- but, just for the record, if someone is saying Quetziquatal was Jesus Christ, that is far more dangerous to the Faith than any odd (and likely wrong) teachings about marks on foreheads, etc.
darinhouston,

You're right because Jesus is our Lord, Savior, Master, our Kingdom King, and our Soverign Creator......
SueAnn wrote:
I think your communication skills are pretty savvy. It's not communication skills that are lacking; it's recognition of authority. I'm not going to speak for Homer or darinhouston, but I will speak for myself. If you were trying to get a foreign point across to me, we would both need to agree on a most FOUNDATIONAL PRECEPT. That is, by what AUTHORITY do we receive truth?


Then I will speak for myself, and say that I wholeheartedly agree. This is the fundamental point we must start from.
darinhouston, I hope to see you on the "By What Authority" thread. :)

(but I'm going to be offline for a few days........ :cry: ..........)

See ya online again soon :D
SueAnn*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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