Is Allah a different God?

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darinhouston
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:26 pm

TK wrote:
Suzana wrote:
darinhouston wrote:
... If they "reject" our triune view of God (and hence Jesus' divinity)....
Slight digesssion: Isn't it possible to reject the triune view of God (as traditionally held & explained), but not Jesus' divinity?
yes- just ask Paidion. I believe this is his position; he can of course explain it more exactly if he wishes.

TK
And my personal favorite -- couldn't you believe in Jesus' divinity and membership in the godhead along with the Father but deny that the Holy Spirit is a third "person" of the Trinity. (binity?) Though I've had proofs that convince me (for the most part -- addressed in this forum as well) with respect to the personhood of the H.S., I find it a particularly more ambiguous position in Scripture than the divinity of the Son, and it is almost NEVER mentioned while doubts as to the Trinity almost always center around the membership of Jesus.

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Paidion
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:39 pm

TK wrote:
Suzana wrote:Slight digesssion: Isn't it possible to reject the triune view of God (as traditionally held & explained), but not Jesus' divinity?
yes- just ask Paidion. I believe this is his position; he can of course explain it more exactly if he wishes.

Okay, I'll bite.

Early in the history of Christianity, modalism arose. It actually pre-dated Trinitarianism.
The belief was that God is a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL who expresses Himself in three modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not three divine Persons, but just One Person. In this view, God took on human flesh, and so became God the Son. This idea is reflected in the hymn Down from His Glory which contains the line, "The Great Creator Became My Saviour."

Modern modalist groups are ususally called "Oneness" groups. They include the United Pentecostal Church, the Apostolic Church, and a number of others. These groups stress the divinity of Christ as much as, if not more than, Trinitarians.

The early Christian view (to which I subscribe) is that the Son of God was begotten by the Father before all ages. The early Christians said that the begetting of the Son was the first of God's acts. I am convinced that this event marked the beginning of time itself. Man begets man and man's offspring is human. Dogs beget dogs, and their offspring is canine. God begets God and His offspring is divine. The Book of Hebrews states that Jesus bears the very stamp of the Father's nature. Jesus also indicated this when He said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

Even as late as the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. when Trinitarianism was defined, the participants spoke of Jesus having been begotten: "Begotten not created" was the watchword, and the expression was used in the ancient Christmas hymn Adeste Fideles.

Later, the Catholic Church changed the concept of Christ having been begotten as an act of God to his being begotten as a continuous process: "He was begotten, He is being begotten, and He will be begotten". Since the continuity idea is close to being meaningless, the whole teaching about His having been begotten was dropped, and later thinkers simply declared Him to be co-eternal with the Father.

Even Arius himself, who has the reputation of having affirmed that Christ was created (though he used the term "begotten") stated in a letter that Jesus was "fully God".
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:02 pm

DarinHouston wrote:And my personal favorite -- couldn't you believe in Jesus' divinity and membership in the godhead along with the Father but deny that the Holy Spirit is a third "person" of the Trinity. (binity?) Though I've had proofs that convince me (for the most part -- addressed in this forum as well) with respect to the personhood of the H.S., I find it a particularly more ambiguous position in Scripture than the divinity of the Son, and it is almost NEVER mentioned while doubts as to the Trinity almost always center around the membership of Jesus.
A while ago I thought for awhile that I was a Binitarian, but I was mistaken. For I do not believe that God is a Binity. According to Jesus in His prayer, eternal life is knowing "[the Father], the only true God" AND knowing Jesus Christ whom the Father sent. By using the conjunction "and" in this way, Jesus indicates that He is someone other than "the only true God." Yet, Jesus is fully divine since He is the unique offspring of the only true God.

Jesus said to His disciples that after He went away, He and His Father would make their dwelling with them. The indwelling spirit of Jesus and His Father is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is personal, but the Spirit is not a third divine Person. The Spirit is the very Persons of the Father and the Son. Sometimes I wonder if those who pray to the Holy Spirit as a third Person might lay themelves open to praying to some other spirit. (Just a thought. I'm not making any claims.)

Interstingly enough, Paul states that Jesus Himself IS the Spirit!

Now the Lord [Jesus] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:17
Paidion

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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:29 pm

Paidion wrote: Jesus said to His disciples that after He went away, He and His Father would make their dwelling with them. The indwelling spirit of Jesus and His Father is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is personal, but the Spirit is not a third divine Person. The Spirit is the very Persons of the Father and the Son. Sometimes I wonder if those who pray to the Holy Spirit as a third Person might lay themelves open to praying to some other spirit. (Just a thought. I'm not making any claims.)

Interstingly enough, Paul states that Jesus Himself IS the Spirit!

Now the Lord [Jesus] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:17
This is the view I've had in the past and even now sort of straddle the fence over.

Here's an interesting article (dealing with both binitarianism and Nicea/Arianism).... http://www.cogwriter.com/two.htm

and a snippet...
Many people know that there was a great debate at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Although he did not wish to go to this meeting, Emperor Constantine summoned and forced Dr. Arius to attend the pagan Emperor's council.

According to historical accounts, the attendees at this council were split into three factions:

1) Arians - Supporters of the position of Dr. Arius, about 10% of the attendees.
2) In-Betweens - Those who held a position between the Arians and Trinitarians, about 75% of the attendees. Eusebius was the main spokesperson for them.
3) Trinitarians - Those who supported the views of Athanasius, about 15% of the attendees.

Notice that even within the Catholic/Orthodox Council, the majority of attending bishops did not hold to the trinitarian view before the Council. No matter what one may feel about the truthfulness of the trinity, how can any say that the acceptance of this doctrine is necessary for Christians as it was not the apparent belief of the majority of church leaders in the early fourth century?

Although, Eusebius led the biggest group, he did not win. After an impassioned speech by Athanasius, Emperor Constantine arose. And since he was the Emperor (plus he was dressed as a golden "angel"), his standing was noticed by the bulk of the attendees who correctly interpreted the Emperor as now supporting Athanasius. And because of Athanasius' speech and the Emperor's approval, the bulk of the attendees decided to come up with a statement on the Godhead that the Arians could not support.

This to a degree solved the Emperor's immediate concern about unity of his version of Christianity, and pretty much drove the Arians out.

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Suzana
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by Suzana » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:55 am

To me, the whole Trinitarian concept itself seems to be impossible to understand or explain adequately, and since the term is not in the bible, I don’t use it, or adhere to the doctrine as such.

I believe what the scriptures actually plainly state about Jesus, and to me it’s obvious that means He is Deity. However, I don’t think it’s necessary to try to explain the finer workings and details of what is probably not within our capabilities to do in this age.

So for example, according to how it's stated in the scriptures, I would refer to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God (or Jesus), rather than ‘God the Holy Spirit’ (a term I don’t recall ever being used in the bible).

In my view, to defend the Deity of the Son of God is one thing (and is necessary), but I think it’s wrong - and creates unnecessary division - to label as heretic anyone who doesn’t happen to agree with our particular view and explanation of how the Godhead works.
Suzana
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:34 am

Suzana wrote:To me, the whole Trinitarian concept itself seems to be impossible to understand or explain adequately, and since the term is not in the bible, I don’t use it, or adhere to the doctrine as such.

I believe what the scriptures actually plainly state about Jesus, and to me it’s obvious that means He is Deity. However, I don’t think it’s necessary to try to explain the finer workings and details of what is probably not within our capabilities to do in this age.

So for example, according to how it's stated in the scriptures, I would refer to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God (or Jesus), rather than ‘God the Holy Spirit’ (a term I don’t recall ever being used in the bible).

In my view, to defend the Deity of the Son of God is one thing (and is necessary), but I think it’s wrong - and creates unnecessary division - to label as heretic anyone who doesn’t happen to agree with our particular view and explanation of how the Godhead works.
Do you see a distinction between saying He is "Deity" and He is "God, Elohim, Yahweh?" Does it mean something generic to you (like royalty) rather than specific (like King)?

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Suzana
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by Suzana » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:07 am

darinhouston wrote: Do you see a distinction between saying He is "Deity" and He is "God, Elohim, Yahweh?" Does it mean something generic to you (like royalty) rather than specific (like King)?
At one time I used to try and use the analogy of a King, and the Prince (who is heir to the throne, thus both royalty), but I’m not sure that I would do so today, because I think the analogy would break down if applied to God.

I used the word “Deity” to distinguish Jesus from ‘a god,’ or created being, rather than being distinct from God or Elohim.
I do believe that Jesus, as stated in Heb 1:3, was the ‘express image of God’; that Jesus was also referenced in Genesis 1:26 (KJV) ‘And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…’, and that He also always existed: (unlike Paidion, I think ‘begotten’ refers to Jesus’ incarnation on earth, but I could be wrong).


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


And yet, there are definitely distinctions made between the Father and the Son; Jesus himself said

Joh 14:28 You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.

And also
1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.


All in all, I think there is enough mystery and seeming contradictions to make me think we just are unable to grasp or explain the unexplainable. That's why I prefer to say "well the Bible says this" so this is what I believe, without making up labels which are just confusing the issue.
Suzana
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:39 pm

Suzana wrote:...and that He also always existed:
I also believe that Jesus always existed as the Logos, the Son of God. The difference, perhaps, is that I do not believe in an infinite regression of time into the past.
(unlike Paidion, I think ‘begotten’ refers to Jesus’ incarnation on earth, but I could be wrong).
In my twenties, I also thought so. But this is not consistent with Christian belief in the first four centuries. Nearly all the Christian leaders, even early Trinitarians, taught that Jesus was begotten before all ages as an act of God. Later Trinitarians spoke of "an eternal begetting", but I know of no one who believed that the incarnation was His begetting. I think this way of thinking of His begetting must be a relatively recent innovation.
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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:32 pm

Theophilus wrote:
1 John 2:23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

According to this verse and others, if Jesus is not part of our view of YHWH, then we do not know YHWH as He wants us to know Him. So it could be argued in a specific sense that a view of God without the Son is not the true Allah. However, in a general sense, all monotheistic religions acknowledge only 1 Allah.
In the Koran you will find Mohammed stated that Jesus did not die on the cross but that another man died in Jesus' place. Absolute blasphemy!

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Re: Is Allah a different God?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:57 pm

So when a Muslim prays to Allah, who answers their prayers?

And when a Jew prays to Hashem, who answers their prayers?

And when a Christian prays to Jesus, who answers their prayers?


If you or I had a loved one who was mentally confused, and imagined that we were a large pink bird named Frank, would we focus on correcting their delusion, or would we be the best large pink bird named Frank we could? Arguably, we would try to guide our loved one out of their delusion, but if they were mired deeply within it, we would probably default to helping them have a better understanding of Frank in concordance with our true selves. Through the funky filter, then, our loved one might yet come to know us and love us.

G-d is loving and merciful, and he stoops to meet us in our confusion.

Someday, if our loved one were to be healed, we might expect that they would love the large pink not-bird not-Frank as well - if the relationship was not essentially about our being a bird and being named Frank. So we would strive - while they were still in their confusion - to help them identify most with what was our true essence, and not with what was part of their confusion. That way they would be primed for the more authentic relationship, once they became healed.

G-d knows that we are dust, and we may imagine that he is striving to prepare us so that when the veil is lifted, we will embrace him with joy, whatever our surprise. If so, the veil is only a temporary obstacle.

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