Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Verse Tool: show

Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby mattrose » Thu May 18, 2017 9:22 am

Homer wrote: I am interested in how Boyd handles 2 Kings 19:35:

2 Kings 19:35 (NASB)

35. Then it happened that night that the angel of the Lord went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead.
.


Volume 2 of Boyd's book has a 50+ page list of Scriptures referenced throughout the work. 2 Kings 19:35 is only mentioned once (page 320). And there it is only mentioned briefly as another example of 'the dark side of the Bible'. Obviously Boyd believes that his cruciform thesis (revealed in volume 2) will provide a way to interpret this text in a way that negates the idea that Jesus, in that passage, killed those Assyrians. I haven't gotten far enough yet to comment on the exact nature of that interpretation.
User avatar
mattrose
 
Posts: 1819
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Homer » Thu May 18, 2017 7:33 pm

Matt,

Thank you very much for your labor and insight.

You wrote in your blog:

In some ways, he was the anti-Moses, the anti-Joshua, the anti-David, the anti-Elijah, etc. He was the Messiah no one expected because they were prepared (largely by the Old Testament) for a military Messiah. It is the challenge of Boyd's book to discover how the violent texts of the Old Testament actually testify to the revelation of God through Christ.


There were things in the OT that arguably could/should have caused a different expectation of the Messiah, Isaiah 53, for example. I have long wondered if we are as wrong as they were (about the Messiah's first coming) in our expectation of the messiah in His coming at the end of the age. I am definitely not a dispensationalist in the popular sense but there have been different periods that can be called dispensations and perhaps the role of the Son of God is delimited by His intention for that dispensation. He came as Lord and Savior but not yet as judge, which seems to be clearly foretold. And it seems likely He will be more than we understand.

What it will be like after the end of the age and the Lord's return is not at all clear in the details. I have Randy Alcorn's book "Heaven" and it seems based more on reason and speculation than scripture, but perhaps that is the best that can be done.

Looking forward to more in your blog.
User avatar
Homer
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Si » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:07 pm

Thanks Matt for posting these reviews on your blog, I'll give them a read. I have to say this is one of the most compelling interpretations of Old Testament violence I've come across yet.

Recently I watched this video which introduces the concept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxi1D6t1Rng

And here's a sermon series on the issue that I started watching:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... moLqspwhiO

Also, his layman's version of this book "Cross Vision" comes out in August, and I eagerly await it.
Si
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:03 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby mattrose » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:35 pm

My thought, so far, (I'm on like page 900) is that Boyd's view is both logically consistent and attractive (in my opinion).

I'm about to start the part of the book I most looked forward to. Boyd will critique Paul Copan's view of the Canaanite Conquest. I think Copan's arguments were pretty strong so it'll be interesting to see how Boyd critiques it. I did ask Boyd (on Twitter) if his views and Copan's views can be blended and he said 'absolutely' which I found a bit surprising at the time.
User avatar
mattrose
 
Posts: 1819
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Homer » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:26 pm

Could God be accused of deception if it takes well over 1000 pages to explain that what appears to be repeatedly and clearly said about Him is incorrect? I have heard it said that the scriptures are plain enough for the simple minded to understand, otherwise God has made no provision for their salvation.
User avatar
Homer
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Si » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:03 pm

Homer wrote:Could God be accused of deception if it takes well over 1000 pages to explain that what appears to be repeatedly and clearly said about Him is incorrect? I have heard it said that the scriptures are plain enough for the simple minded to understand, otherwise God has made no provision for their salvation.


I have never agreed with that statement about the Bible. The gospel message is simple to understand, but the Bible can be quite difficult. Remember, until modern times many if not most people were illiterate, and until the printing press books were unaffordable to most. Most Christians in history have lived their faith without being able to search the Scriptures for themselves. Also the fact is, when we have a text that is millennia old, culturally specific literary genres or rhetorical styles that would have been obvious to the original audience can be lost on us. The more we learn about ancient near eastern history, the more we can understand the text. And since Jesus himself shattered the expectations of most Jews of his day, and what they expected of the Messiah based on their understanding of the Bible, I think interpreting the Old Testament through a Christian lens is absolutely warranted.
Si
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:03 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Homer » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:31 pm

Si wrote:

I think interpreting the Old Testament through a Christian lens is absolutely warranted.


Would Jesus count as one who interpreted the OT through a Christian lens? Jesus thought God caused a great flood unless I misunderstand Matthew 24, and likened the circumstances to what he would do in the future
User avatar
Homer
 
Posts: 2413
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Si » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:09 pm

Homer wrote:Si wrote:

I think interpreting the Old Testament through a Christian lens is absolutely warranted.


Would Jesus count as one who interpreted the OT through a Christian lens? Jesus thought God caused a great flood unless I misunderstand Matthew 24, and likened the circumstances to what he would do in the future


Here is a brief audio clip on Boyd's view of the flood: http://reknew.org/2016/12/podcast-under ... ens-cross/
Si
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:03 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God

Postby Singalphile » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:06 am

I've read a few reviews of the books, including all of mattrose's chapter reviews, and I've listened to Boyd speak about the topic.

I'm still finding it difficult to understand what he's proposing, though mattrose's reviews certainly helped. I'm skeptical of a view about something in the Bible that apparently, as Homer said, "takes well over 1000 pages to explain". Actually, I'd be skeptical even if it were only 100 pages.

I like listening to Greg Boyd. I'm sure he spent a lot of time thinking and researching the issue, and I can appreciate that. But at the moment, I'm thinking that either 1) the idea is truly just impossible to express in a few sentences or short paragraphs, or else 2) the idea doesn't really pass the "red-face test" and requires extended immersion in it before it starts to make sense and seem plausible. Either way, it makes me skeptical, and it doesn't seem all that helpful in regard to apologetics.

I will consider buying the book if it contains a categorized, complete list of every single OT or NT passage that Boyd finds troubling, along with how his view interprets every such passage. That should have been a pretty simple, though time-consuming, thing to accomplish during his years of work, and I think it would be most helpful.

P.S. Also, it's possible that I'm just dense.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
Singalphile
 
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Previous

Return to Teachers, Authors, and Movements

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests