Pagan Christianity
- The Pastor -
1. The chapter starts with the following quote: “So prevailing is the pastor in the minds of most Christians that he is often better known, more highly praised, and more heavily relied upon than Jesus Christ Himself.” What do you think of this statement?
2. Do you agree with PC’s assertion that if we removed ‘the pastor’ most Protestant churches would be thrown into a panic?
3. PC states: “There is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that supports the existence of the modern-day pastor! He simply did not exist in the early church.” Is this true?
4. PC makes the following observations about Eph. 4:11:
a. It is the only usage of ‘pastor’ in the Bible
b. It is in the plural (there should be more than 1)
c. It is a function/role, not an office/title
d. It doesn’t describe the role of a pastor
What DO we learn from this passage?
5. The NT ‘never uses the terms clergy and laity and does not support the concept that there are those who do ministry (clergy) and those to whom ministry is done (laity).’ What do you think of these terms?
6. PC offers the following chronology in regards to how ‘the pastor’ became so prominent in today’s churches:
STEP 1 Fall created a desire for a physical leader
STEP 2 Local elders began to emerge as sole leaders
STEP 3 Distinction b/w clergy & laity popularized
STEP 4 1-Bishop rule prevailed by 4th century
STEP 5 Bishop of Rome given greater authority
STEP 6 Protestants turned ‘Priests’ into ‘Pastors’
7. PC complains that ordination only ‘carries the idea of endorsing, affirming, and showing forth what has already been happening.’ Isn’t that what ordination usually means today?
8. PC states that ‘the pastor’ damages the body by…
1) Divides church into 1st and 2nd class citizens
2) Robs members of their right to function
3) Ignores message of Hebrews (end of Priesthood)
4) Creates a rival for Christ
Do you agree?
9. PC states that ‘the pastor’ damages the pastor too. The authors suggest that the reason so many pastors suffer ‘burn-out,’ ‘stress-out,’ or experience family crisis is because Jesus never intended for any 1 person to play so many roles. It’s ‘lonely at the top’ because God never intended for anyone to be at the top – except His Son. What, if anything, is different about the role of a pastor than any other job?
Book review: Pagan Christianity
-
_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
Hi Homer,Does not Constantine's letter imply there were many church buildings in existence prior to his reign as emporer?
I would be uncomfortable drawing too many implications from the letter without reading it in the original Greek and better understanding it's historical context.
It is a well accepted historical axiom that prior to Constantine's Edict of Milan (sometimes called the Edict of Tolerance) in 313, Christians met in homes. Of course, there could have been exceptions to the rule and it is certain that some of these homes had been modified to better facilitate use by an ekklesia.
For example, the oldest "church building" that we know of dates back to the mid-200's at Dura Europos, near the Euphrates river in modern-day Syria. Dura Europos was a garrison town at the edge of the Roman Empire. The "church building" however, was really just a house that had been converted for church use. It was nothing like the Roman basilicas built under Constantine.
Perhaps the letter is referring to houses used for churches which had been destroyed under the persecution by Emperor Diocletian just prior to Constantine.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Pagan Christianity
- Dressing Up -
1. The chapter begins: “Every Sunday morning, millions of Protestants throughout the world put on their best clothes to attend Sunday morning church. But no one seems question why.” Do you dress up each Sunday? Why or why not?
2. PC states that “the practice of dressing up for church is a relatively recent phenomenon. It began in the late 18th century” and that prior to that dressing up for social events was “known only among the very wealthy” for the simple reason that “only they could afford nice clothing!” Does this surprise you?
3. In a footnote, Viola notes that dressing decently goes back to at least the 3rd century. What sort of parameters do you think there should be on dress for a church gathering?
4. John Wesley wrote against the cultural trend to ‘dress up’ for church gatherings. He was against wearing expensive or flashy clothing. His teaching on clothing is often referred to as the ‘Gospel of plainness.’ He once said: "As to matters of dress, I would recommend one never to be first in the fashion nor the last out of it" Do you think this is good advice?”
5. PC states that dressing up for church is “purely the result of 19th century middle-class efforts to become like their wealthy aristocrat contemporaries, showing off their improved status by their clothing.” Do you think this is the motivation many Christians have for dressing up today?
6. Viola thinks ‘dressing up’ is a big deal because…
a) Reflects false division b/w secular and sacred
b) Sends the message that we’re hiding our real selves
c) Goes against the ‘simplicity’ of the early church
7. PC claims that “Christian clergy did not dress differently from the common people until the coming of Constantine.” What are your thoughts on how a ‘pastor’ should dress? Why?
8. PC reflects that a ‘dressed up’ clergy just goes further in creating the distinction b/w ‘clergy’ and ‘laity’ described in the previous chapter. Do you agree?
9. Are we commanded to ‘dress up’ for a church gathering? Are there poor motivations for doing so? Are there pure motivations for doing so?
- Dressing Up -
1. The chapter begins: “Every Sunday morning, millions of Protestants throughout the world put on their best clothes to attend Sunday morning church. But no one seems question why.” Do you dress up each Sunday? Why or why not?
2. PC states that “the practice of dressing up for church is a relatively recent phenomenon. It began in the late 18th century” and that prior to that dressing up for social events was “known only among the very wealthy” for the simple reason that “only they could afford nice clothing!” Does this surprise you?
3. In a footnote, Viola notes that dressing decently goes back to at least the 3rd century. What sort of parameters do you think there should be on dress for a church gathering?
4. John Wesley wrote against the cultural trend to ‘dress up’ for church gatherings. He was against wearing expensive or flashy clothing. His teaching on clothing is often referred to as the ‘Gospel of plainness.’ He once said: "As to matters of dress, I would recommend one never to be first in the fashion nor the last out of it" Do you think this is good advice?”
5. PC states that dressing up for church is “purely the result of 19th century middle-class efforts to become like their wealthy aristocrat contemporaries, showing off their improved status by their clothing.” Do you think this is the motivation many Christians have for dressing up today?
6. Viola thinks ‘dressing up’ is a big deal because…
a) Reflects false division b/w secular and sacred
b) Sends the message that we’re hiding our real selves
c) Goes against the ‘simplicity’ of the early church
7. PC claims that “Christian clergy did not dress differently from the common people until the coming of Constantine.” What are your thoughts on how a ‘pastor’ should dress? Why?
8. PC reflects that a ‘dressed up’ clergy just goes further in creating the distinction b/w ‘clergy’ and ‘laity’ described in the previous chapter. Do you agree?
9. Are we commanded to ‘dress up’ for a church gathering? Are there poor motivations for doing so? Are there pure motivations for doing so?
Last edited by TK on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
Pagan Christianity
- Church Music -
1. PC, citing Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16 & 1 Cor. 14:26, suggests that the modern practice of having worship leaders is in stark contrast to the early church in which worship and singing were in the hands of the people. Do these verses make his point?
2. PC states that in the early church ‘singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists.’ Have you ever felt like the music on Sunday morning is more like a concert than a time of corporate praise? When and why?
3. PC explains the following stages in history:
a) Choirs created to mirror imperial ceremonies
b) Clergy controlled hymns to prevent heresy
c) Congregational singing was banned in AD 367
d) Revivalists restored full congregational singing
4. PC says that there is ‘no evidence of musical instruments in the Christians church service until the Middle Ages.’ There are still some denominations that refuse to use instruments in worship today. What do you think of this practice?
5. PC complains that much of the ‘contemporary’ praise songs are individualistic (using 1st person singular pronouns—I, me, my). Do you think this is a negative?
6. PC traces the modern ‘worship team’ to the ‘Jesus Movement’ via the Calvary Chapel & Vineyard churches. The founders gave converted ‘hippies and surfers’ a stage for their music (Rock-n-Roll). Do you think this style of music is fitting for a church?
7. PC claims that ‘song leaders, choirs, and worship teams’ make corporate worship very unlikely. ‘When worship songs can only be announced, initiated, and led by the talented, this element of the service becomes more like entertainment than corporate worship.’ Do you agree with either/both of these statements?
8. Viola suggests that every member should feel free to start a song spontaneously and states that this is exactly how the early church functioned? How does he know this and how would this work?
9. Would you enjoy singing songs written by people in your own congregation? Why or why not?
- Church Music -
1. PC, citing Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16 & 1 Cor. 14:26, suggests that the modern practice of having worship leaders is in stark contrast to the early church in which worship and singing were in the hands of the people. Do these verses make his point?
2. PC states that in the early church ‘singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists.’ Have you ever felt like the music on Sunday morning is more like a concert than a time of corporate praise? When and why?
3. PC explains the following stages in history:
a) Choirs created to mirror imperial ceremonies
b) Clergy controlled hymns to prevent heresy
c) Congregational singing was banned in AD 367
d) Revivalists restored full congregational singing
4. PC says that there is ‘no evidence of musical instruments in the Christians church service until the Middle Ages.’ There are still some denominations that refuse to use instruments in worship today. What do you think of this practice?
5. PC complains that much of the ‘contemporary’ praise songs are individualistic (using 1st person singular pronouns—I, me, my). Do you think this is a negative?
6. PC traces the modern ‘worship team’ to the ‘Jesus Movement’ via the Calvary Chapel & Vineyard churches. The founders gave converted ‘hippies and surfers’ a stage for their music (Rock-n-Roll). Do you think this style of music is fitting for a church?
7. PC claims that ‘song leaders, choirs, and worship teams’ make corporate worship very unlikely. ‘When worship songs can only be announced, initiated, and led by the talented, this element of the service becomes more like entertainment than corporate worship.’ Do you agree with either/both of these statements?
8. Viola suggests that every member should feel free to start a song spontaneously and states that this is exactly how the early church functioned? How does he know this and how would this work?
9. Would you enjoy singing songs written by people in your own congregation? Why or why not?
Last edited by TK on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
Pagan Christianity
- Tithing & Clergy Salaries -
1. PC insists that the ‘tithing message’ is a favorite of many Christian leaders and that if you spend any time in the contemporary church, you’ll come across it. In your opinion, do preachers preach too often about tithing?
2. PC states that ‘tithing is biblical, but it is not Christian.’What do the authors mean by this? More importantly, are they correct?
3. PC posits that the 3 ‘tithes’ of ancient Israel (totaling 23.3%/year) is paralleled by the modern taxation system in America. Do you see the similarities?
4. PC recommends stewardship as opposed to tithing and records that the NT saints gave ‘cheerfully according to their ability—not dutifully out of a command.” Do you think tithing becomes a duty instead of a delight?
5. PC declares that the benefactors of the ancient tithe were the poor & needy. Is this true? Where do tithes go today?
6. PC suggests that it was mis-guided for Cyprian, in the 3rd century, to argue for clergy salaries as a parallel to Israel supporting the Levites since, under the New Covenant, we are all priests. Do you agree?
7. PC gives account that ‘the Christian tithe as an institution was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and a common system of land-leasing in medieval Europe.’ Is this surprising?
8. PC summarizes that tithing ‘out of a personal decision or conviction’ is fine, but ‘becomes a problem when it is represented as God’s command, binding upon every believer.’ Does this position resonate with you?
9. Viola delays comment on the passages used to defend clergy salaries until his next book: ‘Reimagining Church’ Do you think it was appropriate to skip this discussion? Do you think Viola considers writing to be his gift to the church? Do you think his books are free?
10. PC argues that modern day tithing is bad news for the poor and good news for the rich since 10% is, for them, a ‘paltry sum.’ He uses the story of the widows mite to illustrate. Does Viola understand percentages?
11. PC says that ‘Elders (shepherds) in the first century were not salaried. They were men with an earthly vocation.’ What are the advantages of having/being a bi-vocational minister?
12. PC lists the following dangers in regards to clergy salaries:
a) It elevates the clergy above the rest
b) It provokes the rest to passive dependency
c) It makes the ‘pastor’ a slave to man
d) It produces a stuck and skill-less clergy
Are these dangers worthy of consideration?
13. PC affirms that tithing is mentioned in the NT, but that none of the passages apply to Christians. What do these passages teach us?
14. PC admits that 1 Tim. 5:17 and Gal. 6:6 may have motivated Christians to make free-will offerings to ministers. Do you agree?
15. Could a congregation ‘freely’ decide to dedicate a ‘salary’ to a minister instead of relying on random free-will offerings? Would there be good reasons for doing so?
16. Do you agree with PC that ‘when the church functions as she should, a professional clergy becomes unnecessary’?
17. PC says that Apostolic Workers were entitled to a salary (see 1 Cor. 9). Could one make a case that pastors are the Apostolic Workers of our day?
Next Week:
Baptism & the Lord’s Supper (Pages 187-198)
- Tithing & Clergy Salaries -
1. PC insists that the ‘tithing message’ is a favorite of many Christian leaders and that if you spend any time in the contemporary church, you’ll come across it. In your opinion, do preachers preach too often about tithing?
2. PC states that ‘tithing is biblical, but it is not Christian.’What do the authors mean by this? More importantly, are they correct?
3. PC posits that the 3 ‘tithes’ of ancient Israel (totaling 23.3%/year) is paralleled by the modern taxation system in America. Do you see the similarities?
4. PC recommends stewardship as opposed to tithing and records that the NT saints gave ‘cheerfully according to their ability—not dutifully out of a command.” Do you think tithing becomes a duty instead of a delight?
5. PC declares that the benefactors of the ancient tithe were the poor & needy. Is this true? Where do tithes go today?
6. PC suggests that it was mis-guided for Cyprian, in the 3rd century, to argue for clergy salaries as a parallel to Israel supporting the Levites since, under the New Covenant, we are all priests. Do you agree?
7. PC gives account that ‘the Christian tithe as an institution was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and a common system of land-leasing in medieval Europe.’ Is this surprising?
8. PC summarizes that tithing ‘out of a personal decision or conviction’ is fine, but ‘becomes a problem when it is represented as God’s command, binding upon every believer.’ Does this position resonate with you?
9. Viola delays comment on the passages used to defend clergy salaries until his next book: ‘Reimagining Church’ Do you think it was appropriate to skip this discussion? Do you think Viola considers writing to be his gift to the church? Do you think his books are free?
10. PC argues that modern day tithing is bad news for the poor and good news for the rich since 10% is, for them, a ‘paltry sum.’ He uses the story of the widows mite to illustrate. Does Viola understand percentages?
11. PC says that ‘Elders (shepherds) in the first century were not salaried. They were men with an earthly vocation.’ What are the advantages of having/being a bi-vocational minister?
12. PC lists the following dangers in regards to clergy salaries:
a) It elevates the clergy above the rest
b) It provokes the rest to passive dependency
c) It makes the ‘pastor’ a slave to man
d) It produces a stuck and skill-less clergy
Are these dangers worthy of consideration?
13. PC affirms that tithing is mentioned in the NT, but that none of the passages apply to Christians. What do these passages teach us?
14. PC admits that 1 Tim. 5:17 and Gal. 6:6 may have motivated Christians to make free-will offerings to ministers. Do you agree?
15. Could a congregation ‘freely’ decide to dedicate a ‘salary’ to a minister instead of relying on random free-will offerings? Would there be good reasons for doing so?
16. Do you agree with PC that ‘when the church functions as she should, a professional clergy becomes unnecessary’?
17. PC says that Apostolic Workers were entitled to a salary (see 1 Cor. 9). Could one make a case that pastors are the Apostolic Workers of our day?
Next Week:
Baptism & the Lord’s Supper (Pages 187-198)
Last edited by TK on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
bump
I was having some problems with the pages on this thread, so I am adding 3 posts so it's fixed for me (maybe I was the only one having the issue, so please feel free to ignore these 3 posts.)
I was having some problems with the pages on this thread, so I am adding 3 posts so it's fixed for me (maybe I was the only one having the issue, so please feel free to ignore these 3 posts.)
Last edited by TK on Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
Pagan Christianity
- Sacraments -
1. The chapter begins by agreeing with mainstream protestant churches regarding the practice of believer’s baptism. What are the arguments against infant baptism and sprinkling?
2. PC critiques the contemporary practice of delaying baptism. The authors argue that baptism should be done immediately (as was the case in the NT). What’s the downside of delaying?
3. PC argues that the Sinner’s Prayer has replaced the role of water baptism as the initial confession of faith despite the fact that nowhere in the NT do we find any person being led to the Lord by a sinner’s prayer. What are the key differences between baptism and this prayer?
4. Viola states that baptism began to be viewed as the one time means to forgiveness. Because of this, some started waiting till their deathbed to be baptized. What Scriptures could have been used to teach this? What do they really mean?
5. Viola takes issue with the phrase ‘personal Savior,’ claiming that it is too individualistic. Do you agree that the Sinner’s Prayer and use of the phrase ‘personal Savior’ turn the focus from ‘we’ to ‘I’?
6. PC states that the Lord’s Supper was a celebratory meal whereas today it is a solemn ceremony. Were these changes positive?
7. PC points out that the ‘love feast’ was prohibited by the Council of Carthage in AD397 and, thus, the name was changed to the ‘Eucharist.’ The authors argue that even though protestants have restored the more proper terms, they haven’t restored the more proper practice. Do you agree?
8. The Wesleyan Church now recommends each church share the Lord’s Supper each month (instead of quarterly). How often would you desire to share in the Lord’s Supper?
- Sacraments -
1. The chapter begins by agreeing with mainstream protestant churches regarding the practice of believer’s baptism. What are the arguments against infant baptism and sprinkling?
2. PC critiques the contemporary practice of delaying baptism. The authors argue that baptism should be done immediately (as was the case in the NT). What’s the downside of delaying?
3. PC argues that the Sinner’s Prayer has replaced the role of water baptism as the initial confession of faith despite the fact that nowhere in the NT do we find any person being led to the Lord by a sinner’s prayer. What are the key differences between baptism and this prayer?
4. Viola states that baptism began to be viewed as the one time means to forgiveness. Because of this, some started waiting till their deathbed to be baptized. What Scriptures could have been used to teach this? What do they really mean?
5. Viola takes issue with the phrase ‘personal Savior,’ claiming that it is too individualistic. Do you agree that the Sinner’s Prayer and use of the phrase ‘personal Savior’ turn the focus from ‘we’ to ‘I’?
6. PC states that the Lord’s Supper was a celebratory meal whereas today it is a solemn ceremony. Were these changes positive?
7. PC points out that the ‘love feast’ was prohibited by the Council of Carthage in AD397 and, thus, the name was changed to the ‘Eucharist.’ The authors argue that even though protestants have restored the more proper terms, they haven’t restored the more proper practice. Do you agree?
8. The Wesleyan Church now recommends each church share the Lord’s Supper each month (instead of quarterly). How often would you desire to share in the Lord’s Supper?
Last edited by TK on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
-
_Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
So how is the class and the discussions going Matt?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: