Book review: Pagan Christianity

[Guest]

That's great stuff Matt! I would change one question:

3. PC points out that Christians did not erect special buildings for worship until the 4th century. Why do you think the early church met in homes?

I would append to this the following: Why do you think the church began meeting in special buildings?

[Guest]

A lot of good questions, Matt.

I'll take a stab at this one:

2. PC claims that the phrase “go to church” would have been a foreign thought to the 1st century believers. How is the term “church” (Ekklesia) used in the NT?

"Ekklāsia" as used in the NT would be the equivalent of the English word "assembly". The (ironically enough) ecclesiatical institutions insisted that the word be translated as "church" ("house of God"). The word "church" isn't such a bad translation if we understand that the people of God are his "house" and not the building in which they meet.

However, it is clear that "ekklāsia" in the NT does not always refer to the people of God. In one case it refers to the people of Ephesus who were worshippers of the goddess Artemis. This is a clear case in which the word cannot be translated as "church" but must be translated as "assembly" or some other word which means much the same.

About that time there arose no little stir concerning the Way. For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen. These he gathered together, with the workmen of like occupation, and said, "Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth. And you see and hear that not only at Ephesus but almost throughout all Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable company of people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may count for nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship."

When they heard this they were enraged, and cried out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!" So the city was filled with the confusion; and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Paul’s companions in travel. Paul wished to go in among the crowd, but the disciples would not let him;
some of the Asiarchs also, who were friends of his, sent to him and begged him not to venture into the theater.

Now some cried one thing, some another; for the assembly was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together.
Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, wishing to make a defense to the people. But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all with one voice cried out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!"

And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky? Seeing then that these things cannot be contradicted, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rash. For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess. If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against any one, the courts are open, and there are proconsuls; let them bring charges against one another. But if you seek anything further, it shall be settled in the regular ekklāsia. For we are in danger of being charged with rioting today, there being no cause that we can give to justify this commotion." And when he had said this, he dismissed the ekklāsia. Acts 19:23-41

[Guest]

One thing I have realized in this great thread is that I want to go to Matt's Church!

Shel

[Guest]

I too enjoyed Pagan Christianity. Im currently enjoying Viola's book "The Untold Story of the New Testament Church". The book is a historical narrative going thru Acts and weaving the Epistles together in chronological order. You may not agree with his chronology, but he does a very good job of painting the historical settings (IMHO).

Brian

[Guest]

8. PC reports that 18% of annual church income goes toward facilities and that 50-85% of a church’s income goes toward overhead costs. The authors claim that 95% of house church income goes directly toward ministry. Do you think institutional churches spend too much money on buildings?

Where we attend there is an average of about 100 attendance including children. All buildings are paid for. Pastors salary is about 40%, direct support of missionaries over 24%, help for needy about 10%, then with expenses for educational materials, etc., not al ot is spent on facilities. And we make the facilities available for community and charitable purposes.

Buildings are not necessarily a problem, but pride and buildings certainly can be.

3. PC points out that Christians did not erect special buildings for worship until the 4th century. Why do you think the early church met in homes?

There may have been many reasons. Poverty, persecution, size of congregation, etc. Jesus was in the habit of attending synagogue. He didn't hesitate to criticize the Jews for their many faults; He seems to have overlooked this one.

4. PC suggests that “when Christianity was born, it was the only religion on the planet that had no sacred objects, no sacred persons, and no sacred spaces.” Do you agree with this? Is it true of the church today?

Sacred person? Does Jesus count?

Good work Matt!

[Guest]

Pagan Christianity
-The Order of Worship-

1. PC states that “the order of worship is essentially the same in virtually all Protestant churches.” What are the pros and cons of this reality?


2. PC lists the common ingredients to worship in the institutional churches. What do you think of each of these ingredients: Greeting at door, Opening prayer or passage, Hymns/Praise, Announcements, Offering, Sermon, Closing song/prayer/alter-call?


3. PC declares that the early church meetings were “marked by every-member functioning, spontaneity, freedom, vibrancy, and open participation.” It lists First Corinthians 14:1-33 & Hebrews 10:25 as examples. Do these passages make his point?


4. Luther introduced changes to the Catholic Mass (used language of people, made sermon the focal point, introduced corporate singing, allowed congregation to partake in communion). Were these changes positive?


5. Calvin introduced some changes to Luther’s format (added the collection of money, eliminated organs and choirs, placed emphasis on academic theology, called for somber attitude in the sanctuary). Do you think these changes were positive?

6. PC contains the following quote: “Today, the pastor is the MC and CEO of the Sunday morning church service- just as the priest is the MC and CEO of the Catholic Mass. This is in stark contrast to the church meetings envisioned in Scripture. According to the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ is the leader, director, and CEO of the church meeting.” Is it impossible for Jesus to lead a service through a pastor or priest?


7. Wesley & the Revivalists introduced Sunday evening services, the altar call, special music, and placed the focus of a church gathering on the conversion of unbelievers. Were these changes positive?


8. PC declares that “In the end, all Protestant traditions share the same unbiblical features in their order of worship: They are officiated and directed by a clergyman, they make the sermon central, and the people are passive and not permitted to minister.” Do you agree with the authors?


9. What do you think of PC’s 4 complaints against an Order of Worship? 1) Represses Mutual Participation 2) Strangles the Headship of Jesus 3) Creates boring routine 4) Hinders spiritual transformation


10. In the Q&A at the end of the chapter, the authors respond to an excellent question regarding whether an organic church style lends itself to disorder. The answer given is that Paul didn't not hand out a liturgy to the chaotic church in Corinth, but gave a number of broad guidelines to provoke order and edification. The authors state that "every church in the 1st century had at its disposal an itinerant apostolic worker." How is turning to an 'apostolic worker' different from leaning on a pastor in regards to finding order in worship?

[Guest]

Hi Matt,

Great questions. I might suggest a few slight alterations:

6. PC contains the following quote: “Today, the pastor is the MC and CEO of the Sunday morning church service- just as the priest is the MC and CEO of the Catholic Mass. This is in stark contrast to the church meetings envisioned in Scripture. According to the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ is the leader, director, and CEO of the church meeting.” Is it impossible for Jesus to lead a service through a pastor or priest?

I would add, "Is it possible for Jesus to lead a service without a pastor or priest?

7. Wesley & the Revivalists introduced Sunday evening services, the altar call, special music, and placed the focus of a church gathering on the conversion of unbelievers. Were these changes positive?

I would change this to, "How were these changes positive? How were these changes negative?"

10. In the Q&A at the end of the chapter, the authors respond to an excellent question regarding whether an organic church style lends itself to disorder. The answer given is that Paul didn't not hand out a liturgy to the chaotic church in Corinth, but gave a number of broad guidelines to provoke order and edification. The authors state that "every church in the 1st century had at its disposal an itinerant apostolic worker." How is turning to an 'apostolic worker' different from leaning on a pastor in regards to finding order in worship?

I would ask, "do you agree with the statement that 'every church in the 1st century had at its disposal an itinerant apostolic worker'?" and then ask "How is turning to an 'apostolic worker' different from leaning on a pastor in regards to finding order in worship?"

I think Viola pushes the necessity of having an "apostolic worker" too far.

[Guest]

PC declares that the early church meetings were “marked by every-member functioning, spontaneity, freedom, vibrancy, and open participation.” It lists First Corinthians 14:1-33 & Hebrews 10:25 as examples. Do these passages make his point?

Much as I believe Viola's statement, I dont think Heb 10:24, 25 necessarily teaches this.

I do think we see body ministry indicated by Paul in I Corinthians 14:1-33

Many who believe the apostolic church practised body ministry especially emphasize verse 26:

What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. RSV

However, I don't think Paul was commending them here, but rather correcting them.

The Greek actually says:

What, therefore is it , brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation; let all things be for edification.

Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians to correct them concerning their practices. He emphases order in a Christian meeting, rather than everyone speaking in tongues at once, or too many prophets speaking.
In this case, the disorder seems to have been that each one tried to do everything: share a psalm, teach, share a revelation, speak in a tongue, interpret, etc. Paul tried to tell them that they should each minister in turn, so that there would be no confusion, but mutual edification. So, although the Corinthians were out of order, Paul's instruction is that they practise body ministry orderly.

Paul did not teach them to abandon body ministry altogether, and set up a system similar to today's "churches" with a pastor who does all the speaking to an audience who does nothing but listen, and participates in nothing but group singing, though specific people may, at the invitation of the leaders share something they have prepared in advance. Such a system leaves no room for the Spirit to lead the body, bur rather quenches the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not to do. ( I Thess 5:19)

[Guest]

Very interesting comment Paidion. Thanks

Danny, I appreciate your wording. To be honest, the reason some of my questions aren't more complete is b/c Microsoft Word only allows me to put so much on the front/back of half a sheet of paper while maintaining a readable font size! But our group discussions covers most of these bases you are mentioning

[Guest]

I've just finished reading the book as well. Overall I thought it was well done and will make a good resource book when trying to talk about the subject to someone who's never thought through the issues presented in the book. So giving this book to someone before trying to discuss these issues at length will at least give some background information and help to raise some important questions people should at least consider when they think about "church" and everything that term implies to people.

The comments here have been very helpful and thought provoking! Keep it up guys!