OK, I've had experiences like what TK and anothersteve are talking about, and I agree that there's no need to preface it with "thus saith the Lord" or whatever equivalent, because you tend to just know when it's from the Lord.
What if someone is preaching and says he has a word from the Lord, but it seems very far fetched to you; like, say... I dunno ... that God told him to do violent things to people in order to demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit, for instance. What if the Holy Spirit actually did tell Todd Bentley to kick that lady or to knock over that man? Is there a danger in initially doubting what later does turn out to be from God? Is there a risk in dismissing this man too quickly?
Todd Bentley Lakeland Florida revival
Last edited by psychohmike on Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_anothersteve
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:30 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Hi Michelle, I don’t think there is any danger or risk in missing out on what someone is saying or doing….even if it is from the Lord. I don’t think God wants us to have our eyes on men…even if they’re bang on. He wants us to have our eyes on Jesus, not following men around. If you have misgivings, I think that’s fine. The only problem I could see is if you were not willing to learn, leaned only on your understanding and failed to be a disciple of Christ.
Let me put it another way. If your only goal is to please and serve Christ then you’ve basically covered it. I don’t see any other requirements in the scripture. In fact, the scripture encourages us to check people out if they say they are Prophets or Apostles. If you have hesitation and are asking questions like “Is he following you Lord”? and “Is he teaching me to follow your way Lord”?. I think you’re doing exactly the right thing.
Let me put it another way. If your only goal is to please and serve Christ then you’ve basically covered it. I don’t see any other requirements in the scripture. In fact, the scripture encourages us to check people out if they say they are Prophets or Apostles. If you have hesitation and are asking questions like “Is he following you Lord”? and “Is he teaching me to follow your way Lord”?. I think you’re doing exactly the right thing.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Michelle wrote:
He used to lead our saturday morning prayer time, and one morning when my wife and I arrived he greeted us at the door of the room, hugged us, and said "welcome, brother and sister, a place has been prepared for you." We looked in the room and he had arranged for Communion at each chair. When he said that to me, and when I walked into that room, I had NEVER felt the love of God like I did at that moment. It literally shook me.
TK
i think the underlined part is the key. i have only been around one man who I would say was really "prophetic"- i.e. he had the gift. He has since moved away and I really miss him. He didnt say a lot, but when he spoke, I listened. He really seemed to be "in tune" with God, and always had a way of confirming things. It was truly remarkable. He never said "thus saith the Lord" or any such thing. He didnt need to.OK, I've had experiences like what TK and anothersteve are talking about, and I agree that there's no need to preface it with "thus saith the Lord" or whatever equivalent, because you tend to just know when it's from the Lord.
He used to lead our saturday morning prayer time, and one morning when my wife and I arrived he greeted us at the door of the room, hugged us, and said "welcome, brother and sister, a place has been prepared for you." We looked in the room and he had arranged for Communion at each chair. When he said that to me, and when I walked into that room, I had NEVER felt the love of God like I did at that moment. It literally shook me.
TK
Last edited by _Freelancer on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
Thank you anothersteve and TK. Your words are exactly what I needed.
Last edited by psychohmike on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I saw on TV yesterday that Todd Bentley was acknowledged as an "Apostle" by Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, and several other members of the Apostolic movement during a layng on of hands ceremony at the Lakeland revival.
I'm a former member of YWAM, so I'm familiar with some of background of this movement, which I believe was begun by Dr. Wagner. I don't quite understand where they're coming from regarding this Apostolic title that they confer. It kind of reminds me in a way of the presumed authority that the leadership of the Roman Catholic church operates under.
Mr. Bentley does seem sincere in his ministry, but I must say that I find many of the events at the Lakeland revival troubling. And to have it displayed daily on worldwide television does give one pause.
PR
I'm a former member of YWAM, so I'm familiar with some of background of this movement, which I believe was begun by Dr. Wagner. I don't quite understand where they're coming from regarding this Apostolic title that they confer. It kind of reminds me in a way of the presumed authority that the leadership of the Roman Catholic church operates under.
Mr. Bentley does seem sincere in his ministry, but I must say that I find many of the events at the Lakeland revival troubling. And to have it displayed daily on worldwide television does give one pause.
PR
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I am not sure what they mean by "apostolic," but the teachings I have heard that are really good are simply a call for the church to return to the glory of the early days. An example of this teaching by Art Katz can be found here:
To God be Glory in the Church
TK
To God be Glory in the Church
TK
Last edited by _Freelancer on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
My computer is too old & I can't watch videos on it. I did, however, download the "Hank" session Sean linked to but haven't listened to much of it. Here's why, at least in part:
Growing up in a Pentecostal church in a semi-southern culture---in my area of Ohio, a significant number of people, like my Dad, migrated here from the south in the 50s and 60s to work in factories---I knew firsthand what the label "holy roller" meant. Our church, which was mostly southerners and their children, some of whom were born in Ohio, like myself; we were really old-fashioned. What others deem as "holy roller" type activities, I know for a fact are simply culturally influenced phenomena. People "jerking" in worship, and things like folks running and dancing during a service is normal for these people who came from a hard life in the coal mines of Tennessee and Kentucky. "Life down home," as my Dad used to say, was rough. One was either a hell-raising, adulterous, drunk or "On The Highway of Holiness." CHOOSE YE THIS DAY!!! Call these people uneducated, or what have you. I know they love God...deeply.
In southern culture, at least in the time I was growing up, non-Pentecostals continually bashed Pentecostals. We were made fun of all the time. In fact, when I listen to Hank talking about what he calls a "counterfeit revival" it is difficult for me not to see him as just one more Pentecostal basher: I've heard all of that before.
Of course, Hank isn't anti-Pentecostal, as he makes clear. He rightly points out excesses in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, especially on doctrinal issues that go too far from orthodoxy, like "Word of Faith." I somewhat disagree with Hank on what he calls, if I'm not mistaken, "group manipulation." How preachers use "emotionalism" to "stir up the crowd." It surely does happen. But the Holy Spirit Himself can move "emotionally" in the hearts of a body of believers too! (Once our morning chapel service in Bible college extended past its 8:15AM deadline to 2PM...and we, every single one of us, worshiped God awesomely that day), Amen!
There's a fine line of distinction with: What are legitimate or acceptable styles of worship? and Why do others not worship as I do? These are culturally defined. N.T. Wright, in one of his lectures, mentioned how he appreciates "high church" hymns and liturgy, while also sensing the deep spirituality in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. He mentioned how black immigrants may come to the UK, go to an Anglican service, and come away feeling that "They didn't do that quite right." So, they form their own churches to worship as it seems fit for them. Wright also said how these folks define a white person: "Someone who can sing without moving" (which to me is really funny, hahaha).
Briefly, on the phenomenon of "jerking." I saw this regularly in church when I was a kid. And I never did really get into the worship as a child, possibly because I hadn't been converted! I'm not sure about that but it's beside the point. At any rate, about 2 years ago, I was meditating on the greatness and glory of God, with a mind toward His fully delivering me from an alcohol habit I had for many years. I was reading the Bible over the internet and praising God silently in my heart. Suddenly, I JERKED...just like I saw those old-fashioned Pentecostals do when I was a child. I didn't fall off the chair or otherwise feel like I was having a seizure or anything like that. It just came over me like a "mighty rolling" kind of sensation---like my body couldn't handle the presence of God inside me for a millisecond. It happened again, once or twice. I knew then and there that, though we kids would laugh at the old folks in church; what they experienced was real and therefore, a legitimate thing.
Emotionalism or the lack thereof in worship, doesn't mean anything. Sitting stiff and high & dry in church doesn't make one any more civilized or better than someone who gets up and "paces the floor for Jesus" (watch T.D. Jakes on TV). Sometimes, while watching Jakes, I'll literally get up off the sofa and "do some holy walking" around my apartment: I can't seem to help myself!!!
At the same time, quiet and reverent or liturgical worship isn't an indicator that, "They don't believe in the Holy Ghost in 'formal' churches," as I often heard it said in my church growing up.
So the [wrongful!] criticism has gone both ways....
As an aside, I've been in Pentecostal/Charismatic worship in different churches or prayer meetings that were as quiet as a monastery. The Holy Spirit can lead humans, who have human emotions, in the direction He wills....
____________________
Directly to the topic.
Though I haven't seen a Todd Bentley video, from what I've gathered it appears he's gone too far. (I never saw anyone get kicked in the face nor anything similar to it growing up). I saw people do somewhat strange things (which would probably scare some of y'all)...but that's the norm in old-fashioned Pentecostal churches; I'm used to it (though I don't go to Pentecostal churches much these days).
____________________
Btw, my Mom, who still goes to the church of my upbringing, tells me that their services are sometimes, and quite often, "dry." She was raised Northern Baptist and never really got into dancing and so on. But she, and others have told me that many Pentecostal churches today are essentially the same as non-Pentecostal churches. "Non-enthusiatic" (Mom says the people look "sleepy" even) and the gifts of the Holy Spirit being less and less in operation.
I'll have another post on the gifts, and prophecy in particular. Thanks
Growing up in a Pentecostal church in a semi-southern culture---in my area of Ohio, a significant number of people, like my Dad, migrated here from the south in the 50s and 60s to work in factories---I knew firsthand what the label "holy roller" meant. Our church, which was mostly southerners and their children, some of whom were born in Ohio, like myself; we were really old-fashioned. What others deem as "holy roller" type activities, I know for a fact are simply culturally influenced phenomena. People "jerking" in worship, and things like folks running and dancing during a service is normal for these people who came from a hard life in the coal mines of Tennessee and Kentucky. "Life down home," as my Dad used to say, was rough. One was either a hell-raising, adulterous, drunk or "On The Highway of Holiness." CHOOSE YE THIS DAY!!! Call these people uneducated, or what have you. I know they love God...deeply.
In southern culture, at least in the time I was growing up, non-Pentecostals continually bashed Pentecostals. We were made fun of all the time. In fact, when I listen to Hank talking about what he calls a "counterfeit revival" it is difficult for me not to see him as just one more Pentecostal basher: I've heard all of that before.
Of course, Hank isn't anti-Pentecostal, as he makes clear. He rightly points out excesses in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, especially on doctrinal issues that go too far from orthodoxy, like "Word of Faith." I somewhat disagree with Hank on what he calls, if I'm not mistaken, "group manipulation." How preachers use "emotionalism" to "stir up the crowd." It surely does happen. But the Holy Spirit Himself can move "emotionally" in the hearts of a body of believers too! (Once our morning chapel service in Bible college extended past its 8:15AM deadline to 2PM...and we, every single one of us, worshiped God awesomely that day), Amen!
There's a fine line of distinction with: What are legitimate or acceptable styles of worship? and Why do others not worship as I do? These are culturally defined. N.T. Wright, in one of his lectures, mentioned how he appreciates "high church" hymns and liturgy, while also sensing the deep spirituality in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. He mentioned how black immigrants may come to the UK, go to an Anglican service, and come away feeling that "They didn't do that quite right." So, they form their own churches to worship as it seems fit for them. Wright also said how these folks define a white person: "Someone who can sing without moving" (which to me is really funny, hahaha).
Briefly, on the phenomenon of "jerking." I saw this regularly in church when I was a kid. And I never did really get into the worship as a child, possibly because I hadn't been converted! I'm not sure about that but it's beside the point. At any rate, about 2 years ago, I was meditating on the greatness and glory of God, with a mind toward His fully delivering me from an alcohol habit I had for many years. I was reading the Bible over the internet and praising God silently in my heart. Suddenly, I JERKED...just like I saw those old-fashioned Pentecostals do when I was a child. I didn't fall off the chair or otherwise feel like I was having a seizure or anything like that. It just came over me like a "mighty rolling" kind of sensation---like my body couldn't handle the presence of God inside me for a millisecond. It happened again, once or twice. I knew then and there that, though we kids would laugh at the old folks in church; what they experienced was real and therefore, a legitimate thing.
Emotionalism or the lack thereof in worship, doesn't mean anything. Sitting stiff and high & dry in church doesn't make one any more civilized or better than someone who gets up and "paces the floor for Jesus" (watch T.D. Jakes on TV). Sometimes, while watching Jakes, I'll literally get up off the sofa and "do some holy walking" around my apartment: I can't seem to help myself!!!
At the same time, quiet and reverent or liturgical worship isn't an indicator that, "They don't believe in the Holy Ghost in 'formal' churches," as I often heard it said in my church growing up.
So the [wrongful!] criticism has gone both ways....
As an aside, I've been in Pentecostal/Charismatic worship in different churches or prayer meetings that were as quiet as a monastery. The Holy Spirit can lead humans, who have human emotions, in the direction He wills....
____________________
Directly to the topic.
Though I haven't seen a Todd Bentley video, from what I've gathered it appears he's gone too far. (I never saw anyone get kicked in the face nor anything similar to it growing up). I saw people do somewhat strange things (which would probably scare some of y'all)...but that's the norm in old-fashioned Pentecostal churches; I'm used to it (though I don't go to Pentecostal churches much these days).
____________________
Btw, my Mom, who still goes to the church of my upbringing, tells me that their services are sometimes, and quite often, "dry." She was raised Northern Baptist and never really got into dancing and so on. But she, and others have told me that many Pentecostal churches today are essentially the same as non-Pentecostal churches. "Non-enthusiatic" (Mom says the people look "sleepy" even) and the gifts of the Holy Spirit being less and less in operation.
I'll have another post on the gifts, and prophecy in particular. Thanks
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:06 pm, edited 10 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Quick P.S. to TK:
Hey, Bro, could you please do a "link" with that URL?
(My screen has gone waaaaaay wide). If possible, thanks,
Hey, Bro, could you please do a "link" with that URL?
(My screen has gone waaaaaay wide). If possible, thanks,
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
Rick, I apologize to you, as well as all the other readers, if I in any way gave the impression that I was criticizing anyone, even Todd Bentley, for the style of worship they participate in, or for their station in life, or any in other reason that made it seem that I was looking down on another Christian as inferior. I don't have the right to do that and I'm horrified to think that I might have engaged in that behavior.
I was led to ask the questions that I did in this thread because of a conversation I'm involved in elsewhere; and my goal was to explore what my role might be the face of false teaching and whether or not it is good, right, correct, or whatever to question a man who calls himself a prophet, and now apparently an apostle.
Todd Bentley seems to be a violent man and violence fills me with anxiety. Perhaps violence can be incorporated into worship, but I doubt it. At least for me, my discomfort would be too overwhelming.
The violence, the talking with angels, and what seems to me to be unbiblical teaching have led me to question whether this man is a truly speaking for the Lord. In that other conversation this attitude was rebuked because it was equated with questioning the Lord Himself. I was interested in exploring that notion, and that's why I asked the questions I did.
I was led to ask the questions that I did in this thread because of a conversation I'm involved in elsewhere; and my goal was to explore what my role might be the face of false teaching and whether or not it is good, right, correct, or whatever to question a man who calls himself a prophet, and now apparently an apostle.
Todd Bentley seems to be a violent man and violence fills me with anxiety. Perhaps violence can be incorporated into worship, but I doubt it. At least for me, my discomfort would be too overwhelming.
The violence, the talking with angels, and what seems to me to be unbiblical teaching have led me to question whether this man is a truly speaking for the Lord. In that other conversation this attitude was rebuked because it was equated with questioning the Lord Himself. I was interested in exploring that notion, and that's why I asked the questions I did.
Last edited by psychohmike on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
On the gift of Prophecy in the Church.
____________________
Foretelling Prophecy: Predictions Along the Path.
Acts 21, NIV
7We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and stayed with them for a day. 8Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.
10After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' "
12When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."
This example of Agabus and Paul perfectly illustrates foretelling or predictive prophecy. It differs from forthtelling prophecy in one way: it predicts events. I've known several people, maybe about five or so, who were used in the gift of prophecy like this. I could give two examples from my own life when two people "spoke to me in the name of the Lord." What they said was much more than "an encouraging word from Lord." They were given precise details about my life that only God could know. I won't go into what they said other than to say, "They spoke for, or as, God: And it changed my life!"
____________________
Forthtelling Prophecy: Instructive Words of Strength, Encouragement, and Comfort to the Church.
1 Corinthians 14, NIV
2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
Here Paul touches on how the gift of tongues for the church (as distinct from "personal prayer language") with the accompanying interpretation is equivalent to prophesying: The "utterance" in tongues is interpreted. Many people (like some of we FBFF folks) have never seen these gifts in operation. And from what I've been hearing from a reliable source, they have been waning in many Pentecostal churches in the last couple decades.
From what y'all posted (above) I think there's some confusion about the gift of prophecy. I was "used" in these vocal gifts some time ago and fairly often (utterance in tongues with interpretation for the church, and prophecy). In the gift of prophecy (or tongues/interpretation, which is equivalent to prophecy) I was used as a "forth-teller" with the exception of one time. This exception was about something---which at that time, I said to myself, "I can hardly believe I'm saying this"---as it predicted that God would strictly discipline someone or any number of people that were in a prayer meeting: "I will afflict you if you do not follow Me!" (was close to the wording). To this day, I wonder who that prophecy was for, or if it was just "me" speaking. But it just now occurred to me that: Perhaps it was for myself?! (as my life later demonstrated, which is another story)....
We should have weighed the prophecy out, as Paul said (in verse 29 above).
I still know a couple people who were there, but let's move on....
Back to forthtelling prophecy.
Paul doesn't specifically say it, but in my experience, people who are used in the gift of prophecy speak for God in the first person. They may or may not say "Thus says the Lord." But they will say "I" (or "Me" as with my above) as God speaking directly.
Let me give a recent example.
Not long ago, I got back in touch with someone I've known since the 70s. She (her name is Jeannie-Marie) was used by God in prophecy and was one of the two people who spoke to me in a "foretelling" and life-changing way. I went to visit her church, which she and her husband, Ron, pastor.
A week or so before the visit.
I was in a deep study of Revelation 20-22, which I'm still doing. This study has led to considerations of The Temple in both testaments. In the NT, and without citing passages, The Temple of God is depicted in different ways as: (1) Jesus' own body; Jesus who embodied everything the Temple really stood for, (2) The Church or Body of Christ, "Do you not know your bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit?" wrote Paul, (3) in Hebrews The Temple of the Old Covenant was a mere "shadow" of the reality to be found in Christ; we have a new and better High Priest in Jesus, (4) in Revelation, The Temple is in some way, the New Heavens and New Earth, the New Jerusalem coming down from God: the True Holy of Holies. We have approached Mount Zion and that heavenly city, for she is our mother, wrote Paul.
Forthtelling Prophecy: Instruction, Strength, Encouragement, and Comfort in Action.
Just before going to Ron & Jeannie-Marie's church, I scanned over some notes I had made in this study, being in a state of meditation, contemplating these things. During the service and before the sermon, Jeannie-Marie prophesied. These are close to her actual words (indigo and bold, I just like how it looks):
"Thus says the Lord, O My people! Come!
I have prepared The Way for you to enter into My Courts with thanksgiving! O rise up, come, and enter! I stand as your Advocate in the Holy of Holies. O Come! Enter into My Presence! O My People, I hear your prayers! Come, O come! and receive all that My Father has prepared for you! Lean not on the flesh but enter in, enter in! O My people, arise, come, and draw near to Me, says the Lord!"
This is the gift of forthtelling prophecy: "You tend to just know when it's from the Lord."
This prophecy spoke directly to the insides of my heart in confirmation of all I had been studying....
Praise God!
Jesus reigns!
1 Corinthians 12-14 gives guidelines on the exercise of spiritual gifts. Chapter 14 in particular outlines how prophecy, and tongues with the interpretation of tongues, are to be done. I don't want to do a full "teaching" here but want to point to a few things.Steve wrote:I believe that Christians should very sparingly claim that God told them something. If God tells you something, it will be true—though having had Him speak to you does not make you a prophet of any kind, true or false.
If you do not say, "Thus says the Lord..." (or something equivalent), then you are not really prophesying, and you, as a private believer, may certainly mistake what you regard to be the word of the Lord, at times. Such mistakes should make you doubly cautious in the future about assuming the divine inspiration of your thoughts.
Steve F replied:
I, like yourself and Steve, am not inclined to use phrases like "The Lord says". This is too flippant and disrespectful. I much prefer to say something like, "I think I’m suppose to share this with you" (even then, I rarely use those words...even words like that can seem overdramtic at times. If what you're sharing is from God you don't usually need a preface to state such, it will likley be apparent). I would never want to presume to "speak for God" something he never said and misrepresent Him.
Then Michelle wrote:
OK, I've had experiences like what TK and anothersteve are talking about, and I agree that there's no need to preface it with "thus saith the Lord" or whatever equivalent, because you tend to just know when it's from the Lord.
Lastly, TK added:
i think the underlined part is the key. i have only been around one man who I would say was really "prophetic"- i.e. he had the gift. He has since moved away and I really miss him. He didnt say a lot, but when he spoke, I listened. He really seemed to be "in tune" with God, and always had a way of confirming things. It was truly remarkable. He never said "thus saith the Lord" or any such thing. He didnt need to.
____________________
Foretelling Prophecy: Predictions Along the Path.
Acts 21, NIV
7We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and stayed with them for a day. 8Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.
10After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' "
12When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. 13Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." 14When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, "The Lord's will be done."
This example of Agabus and Paul perfectly illustrates foretelling or predictive prophecy. It differs from forthtelling prophecy in one way: it predicts events. I've known several people, maybe about five or so, who were used in the gift of prophecy like this. I could give two examples from my own life when two people "spoke to me in the name of the Lord." What they said was much more than "an encouraging word from Lord." They were given precise details about my life that only God could know. I won't go into what they said other than to say, "They spoke for, or as, God: And it changed my life!"
____________________
Forthtelling Prophecy: Instructive Words of Strength, Encouragement, and Comfort to the Church.
1 Corinthians 14, NIV
2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
Here Paul touches on how the gift of tongues for the church (as distinct from "personal prayer language") with the accompanying interpretation is equivalent to prophesying: The "utterance" in tongues is interpreted. Many people (like some of we FBFF folks) have never seen these gifts in operation. And from what I've been hearing from a reliable source, they have been waning in many Pentecostal churches in the last couple decades.
From what y'all posted (above) I think there's some confusion about the gift of prophecy. I was "used" in these vocal gifts some time ago and fairly often (utterance in tongues with interpretation for the church, and prophecy). In the gift of prophecy (or tongues/interpretation, which is equivalent to prophecy) I was used as a "forth-teller" with the exception of one time. This exception was about something---which at that time, I said to myself, "I can hardly believe I'm saying this"---as it predicted that God would strictly discipline someone or any number of people that were in a prayer meeting: "I will afflict you if you do not follow Me!" (was close to the wording). To this day, I wonder who that prophecy was for, or if it was just "me" speaking. But it just now occurred to me that: Perhaps it was for myself?! (as my life later demonstrated, which is another story)....
We should have weighed the prophecy out, as Paul said (in verse 29 above).
I still know a couple people who were there, but let's move on....
Back to forthtelling prophecy.
Paul doesn't specifically say it, but in my experience, people who are used in the gift of prophecy speak for God in the first person. They may or may not say "Thus says the Lord." But they will say "I" (or "Me" as with my above) as God speaking directly.
Let me give a recent example.
Not long ago, I got back in touch with someone I've known since the 70s. She (her name is Jeannie-Marie) was used by God in prophecy and was one of the two people who spoke to me in a "foretelling" and life-changing way. I went to visit her church, which she and her husband, Ron, pastor.
A week or so before the visit.
I was in a deep study of Revelation 20-22, which I'm still doing. This study has led to considerations of The Temple in both testaments. In the NT, and without citing passages, The Temple of God is depicted in different ways as: (1) Jesus' own body; Jesus who embodied everything the Temple really stood for, (2) The Church or Body of Christ, "Do you not know your bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit?" wrote Paul, (3) in Hebrews The Temple of the Old Covenant was a mere "shadow" of the reality to be found in Christ; we have a new and better High Priest in Jesus, (4) in Revelation, The Temple is in some way, the New Heavens and New Earth, the New Jerusalem coming down from God: the True Holy of Holies. We have approached Mount Zion and that heavenly city, for she is our mother, wrote Paul.
Forthtelling Prophecy: Instruction, Strength, Encouragement, and Comfort in Action.
Just before going to Ron & Jeannie-Marie's church, I scanned over some notes I had made in this study, being in a state of meditation, contemplating these things. During the service and before the sermon, Jeannie-Marie prophesied. These are close to her actual words (indigo and bold, I just like how it looks):
"Thus says the Lord, O My people! Come!
I have prepared The Way for you to enter into My Courts with thanksgiving! O rise up, come, and enter! I stand as your Advocate in the Holy of Holies. O Come! Enter into My Presence! O My People, I hear your prayers! Come, O come! and receive all that My Father has prepared for you! Lean not on the flesh but enter in, enter in! O My people, arise, come, and draw near to Me, says the Lord!"
This is the gift of forthtelling prophecy: "You tend to just know when it's from the Lord."
This prophecy spoke directly to the insides of my heart in confirmation of all I had been studying....
Praise God!
Jesus reigns!
Last edited by _Rich on Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:09 pm, edited 16 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth