Steve,
Can you recommend any books/websites to help me when witnessing to my mother-in-law who is a devoted Jehova's Witness. Thanks.
Jehova's Witnesses
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_Anonymous
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Jehova's Witnesses
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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You might find some help at www.equip.org or at www.carm.org.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Deep Stuff
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- Location: Farmington NM
You might also want to check out http://www.watchman.org/jwtools.htm http://www.cftf.com/comments/bibleans.html and http://www.webshowplace.com/question/101quest.html
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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Jehovah's Witnesses
Being an ex-JW I could highly recommend the book by Ron Rhodes "Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses". It is comprehensive and accurate.
Carl
Carl
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Les Wright
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- Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:32 am
Hi.. I wasn't sure where to post this... but I'd appreciate some feedback on this document that I've put together (largely borrowed from other sources) as a help to organize my thoughts/responses to JW arguments against the Trinity... If any of you are familiar with the little booklet that JWs have.. a JW 'friend' of mine was kind enough to print me off a copy regarding the Trinity and the following document follows its train of thought and as such, is often only one-side of the conversation (like the epistles are I guess)
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Trinity
Definition: The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other, yet there exists a hierarchical relationship within the Godhead. Each person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.
Holy Spirit
Re: Filled, baptized, annointed
“These latter references to the Holy Spirit definitely do not fit a person.” (Trinity, )
If these references prove the Holy Spirit is not a person, then is Jesus Christ a person? For example, how could you ‘put on’ a person? (Rom 13:14, Gal 3:27)
Being ‘filled’ by the Spirit indicates being controlled or influenced by the Spirit (Eph 5:18). It does not prove that the Holy Spirit is a force.
We are told that Christians have been baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3). Can you be ‘baptized’ into a person? Yes, according to the Bible, you can be baptized with or into a person.
If you do not know somebody’s name, does that make him or her not a person? You cannot argue from silence.
The word translated Spirit from both Hebrew and Greek can mean breath or spirit. Why does your translation interpret and mistranslate Gen 1:2 as ‘active force’ according to your theology and not according to the plain rendering of the scripture? Is this not misleading?
3 Separate & Distinct Persons
I agree that the Bible teaches that Jesus was a distinct person from the Father; however, by the same standard the Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person as He has His own will (1 Cor 12:11, Mt 28:39).
Eternal
Firstborn (Col 1:15) is a title of authority as a King, compare with Ps 89:27 ‘over all;’ firstborn from the dead (Rev 1:5) and in Heb 1:2,4,6 regarding Jesus being made heir of all things. It appears that this title is prior to creation (Col 1:16); however, it is possible that it is the same title expressed in Col 1:18 which shows Jesus is ‘firstborn’ of the new creation, a title which he received after His resurrection (Rev 1:5, Matt 28:18). Clearly, the title ‘firstborn’ in reference form being ‘firstborn’ from the dead is not used in the typical biological fashion.
If Jesus was first-created thing, then how could this be true? "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone'" (Isaiah 44:24, NASB).
Rev 3:14 identifies 3 titles of Jesus Christ; the Amen, Faithful and True Witness, and the Beginning of the God’s Creation. The word translated ‘beginning’ is very similar to that translated ‘ruler’ in Rev 1:5 and can signify “primacy,” whether in time “beginning,” principium or in rank: “power,” “dominion,” “office.” It appears to be a synonym or interchangeable title for ‘firstborn’ used elsewhere. The idea of Jesus being the ‘first created’ being would contradict other Bible passages (Prov 8:22,23; John 1:3)
In Rev 1:17, Jesus is “The First and The Last” as in 2:8 and 22:13. YHWH in the Old Testament has this name in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12. In Rev. 5:13-14, a picture is given of “One sitting on the throne” and “to the Lamb” receiving worship. In Rev 22:13, Jesus is given three names: The First and The Last, The Beginning and The End, and The Alpha and The Omega. This gives Jesus the same name as the ‘One sitting on the throne’ Rev 5:13-14 & 21:6. There can be little doubt that this refers to the Father sitting on the throne.
Co-Equal, yet Hierarchical (i.e. Differing Authority/Roles)
Mark 13:32 is thought to teach that Jesus could not be true God because God is all-knowing and Jesus plainly says that He did not know the exact timing of His second coming. This teaching fails to take into consideration Christ intentionally and temporarily laid aside certain elements of His power when He took on human form (Phil 2:6-8).
While this verse teaches the limited knowledge of the Son during His earthly ministry, it does not follow that Jesus Christ’s knowledge remains limited now (Rev 22:12-13). Further, Paul teaches us that in Christ are hidden "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). If Christ now has all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, there is no knowledge that He lacks.
The real thrust of this verse, of course, is not to diminish the Son in respect to His Father. In the verse immediately preceding this one (Mark 13:31), Jesus proclaims that His words will never pass away - placing His authority on equal footing with His Father. The point Jesus is making is the futility of speculating about the Son's return and the coming Kingdom. Ironically, many groups which have used this verse to teach the inferiority of the Son have ignored its fundamental teaching.
John 14:28 is also used to teach that the Father is greater than the Son. Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position (Heb 2:9, Phil. 2:5-8). Jesus was not denying that He was God; He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people. As a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5).
While the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal, they appear to have distinct roles /authority. Simply put, there appears to be a hierarchical relationship of the three persons in the Godhead; namely Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear of this distinction between and Father and the Son (1 Cor 11:3, 1 Cor 15:27). Since the Holy Spirit’s role is to glorify the Son (John 16:14), it appears that He is least in authority. Furthermore, the Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10) and the Son and Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).
This does not mean that the three persons that comprise God are not equal. A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, they just have different roles in the relationship. A further example would be that of a human king, who is equal in value to his subjects and slaves yet given authority to rule over them by God.
(this is supposed to be in chart form, the spaces show the breaks betwen the persons in the Godhead)
Jesus Father Holy Spirit
God John 1:1, Rom 9:5, 1 John 5:20 Mt 6:9, Acts 2:33, Rom 1:7, 1 Cor 1:3, Gal 1:4 Acts 5:3-4
Eternal Rom 9:5 Deut 33:27, 1 Tim 1:15 Heb 9:14
Almighty Rev 1:8 No scripture
Mighty Is 9:6 Gen 29:24, Ps 50:1, Is 10:21, Jer 32:18 No scripture
Equal John 5:18 John 5:18 ?
Powerful ? ? ?
Will Mt 28:39 Is 55:7, 1 Tim 2:4 1 Cor 12:11
The bottom line is that Jehovah is also called the Mighty God, so this is not a term for Jesus alone (Is 9:6), but for Yahweh (Gen 29:24, Ps 50:1, Is 10:21, Jer 32:18).
Thanks.
in Him,
Les
--------
Trinity
Definition: The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other, yet there exists a hierarchical relationship within the Godhead. Each person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.
Holy Spirit
Re: Filled, baptized, annointed
“These latter references to the Holy Spirit definitely do not fit a person.” (Trinity, )
If these references prove the Holy Spirit is not a person, then is Jesus Christ a person? For example, how could you ‘put on’ a person? (Rom 13:14, Gal 3:27)
Being ‘filled’ by the Spirit indicates being controlled or influenced by the Spirit (Eph 5:18). It does not prove that the Holy Spirit is a force.
We are told that Christians have been baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3). Can you be ‘baptized’ into a person? Yes, according to the Bible, you can be baptized with or into a person.
If you do not know somebody’s name, does that make him or her not a person? You cannot argue from silence.
The word translated Spirit from both Hebrew and Greek can mean breath or spirit. Why does your translation interpret and mistranslate Gen 1:2 as ‘active force’ according to your theology and not according to the plain rendering of the scripture? Is this not misleading?
3 Separate & Distinct Persons
I agree that the Bible teaches that Jesus was a distinct person from the Father; however, by the same standard the Bible also teaches that the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person as He has His own will (1 Cor 12:11, Mt 28:39).
Eternal
Firstborn (Col 1:15) is a title of authority as a King, compare with Ps 89:27 ‘over all;’ firstborn from the dead (Rev 1:5) and in Heb 1:2,4,6 regarding Jesus being made heir of all things. It appears that this title is prior to creation (Col 1:16); however, it is possible that it is the same title expressed in Col 1:18 which shows Jesus is ‘firstborn’ of the new creation, a title which he received after His resurrection (Rev 1:5, Matt 28:18). Clearly, the title ‘firstborn’ in reference form being ‘firstborn’ from the dead is not used in the typical biological fashion.
If Jesus was first-created thing, then how could this be true? "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone'" (Isaiah 44:24, NASB).
Rev 3:14 identifies 3 titles of Jesus Christ; the Amen, Faithful and True Witness, and the Beginning of the God’s Creation. The word translated ‘beginning’ is very similar to that translated ‘ruler’ in Rev 1:5 and can signify “primacy,” whether in time “beginning,” principium or in rank: “power,” “dominion,” “office.” It appears to be a synonym or interchangeable title for ‘firstborn’ used elsewhere. The idea of Jesus being the ‘first created’ being would contradict other Bible passages (Prov 8:22,23; John 1:3)
In Rev 1:17, Jesus is “The First and The Last” as in 2:8 and 22:13. YHWH in the Old Testament has this name in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12. In Rev. 5:13-14, a picture is given of “One sitting on the throne” and “to the Lamb” receiving worship. In Rev 22:13, Jesus is given three names: The First and The Last, The Beginning and The End, and The Alpha and The Omega. This gives Jesus the same name as the ‘One sitting on the throne’ Rev 5:13-14 & 21:6. There can be little doubt that this refers to the Father sitting on the throne.
Co-Equal, yet Hierarchical (i.e. Differing Authority/Roles)
Mark 13:32 is thought to teach that Jesus could not be true God because God is all-knowing and Jesus plainly says that He did not know the exact timing of His second coming. This teaching fails to take into consideration Christ intentionally and temporarily laid aside certain elements of His power when He took on human form (Phil 2:6-8).
While this verse teaches the limited knowledge of the Son during His earthly ministry, it does not follow that Jesus Christ’s knowledge remains limited now (Rev 22:12-13). Further, Paul teaches us that in Christ are hidden "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). If Christ now has all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, there is no knowledge that He lacks.
The real thrust of this verse, of course, is not to diminish the Son in respect to His Father. In the verse immediately preceding this one (Mark 13:31), Jesus proclaims that His words will never pass away - placing His authority on equal footing with His Father. The point Jesus is making is the futility of speculating about the Son's return and the coming Kingdom. Ironically, many groups which have used this verse to teach the inferiority of the Son have ignored its fundamental teaching.
John 14:28 is also used to teach that the Father is greater than the Son. Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position (Heb 2:9, Phil. 2:5-8). Jesus was not denying that He was God; He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man (Col. 2:9). He became a man to die for people. As a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5).
While the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are equal, they appear to have distinct roles /authority. Simply put, there appears to be a hierarchical relationship of the three persons in the Godhead; namely Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear of this distinction between and Father and the Son (1 Cor 11:3, 1 Cor 15:27). Since the Holy Spirit’s role is to glorify the Son (John 16:14), it appears that He is least in authority. Furthermore, the Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10) and the Son and Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26).
This does not mean that the three persons that comprise God are not equal. A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, they just have different roles in the relationship. A further example would be that of a human king, who is equal in value to his subjects and slaves yet given authority to rule over them by God.
(this is supposed to be in chart form, the spaces show the breaks betwen the persons in the Godhead)
Jesus Father Holy Spirit
God John 1:1, Rom 9:5, 1 John 5:20 Mt 6:9, Acts 2:33, Rom 1:7, 1 Cor 1:3, Gal 1:4 Acts 5:3-4
Eternal Rom 9:5 Deut 33:27, 1 Tim 1:15 Heb 9:14
Almighty Rev 1:8 No scripture
Mighty Is 9:6 Gen 29:24, Ps 50:1, Is 10:21, Jer 32:18 No scripture
Equal John 5:18 John 5:18 ?
Powerful ? ? ?
Will Mt 28:39 Is 55:7, 1 Tim 2:4 1 Cor 12:11
The bottom line is that Jehovah is also called the Mighty God, so this is not a term for Jesus alone (Is 9:6), but for Yahweh (Gen 29:24, Ps 50:1, Is 10:21, Jer 32:18).
Thanks.
in Him,
Les
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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