The Naked Gospel (new book)

[steve7150]

Your "special belief," to which I referred, is that the teaching of 1 John 1 is not relevant to Christians.






Thank you for your response. I did say 1 John 1 "seems to be written to gnostics" which i meant to portray that it did'nt sound to me like anything else John wrote to believers. In 1 John 1.10 John says "If we say that we have not sinned we make him a liar and his word is not in us." Was'nt it the gnostics who claimed their immoral acts were not sinful , do any Christians think they have not sinned and if so why would they need Jesus?
In the John Macarthur NKJV he comments on 1.9 "Rather then focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary , John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness."

[kaufmannphillips]

steve wrote:
No Christian (other than Roman Catholics) has ever suggested that Jesus must be offered more than once to cover sins. The crucifixion is a singular and unique event in history. It is sufficient to cover all the sins ever committed, as well as all that ever will be committed.

Here I suppose you are referring to the Roman Catholic mass. For what it is worth, Roman Catholics believe that the Eucharist (~ "Lord's Supper") is a re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary. In the ritual, the singular and unique event transcends time and space. The Catechism reads:

When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present: the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present. "As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out." ...

The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: "[Christ] ... was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the latar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper 'on the night when he was betrayed,' [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit."

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."

Some Anglicans may hold this sort of perspective as well.

[steve7150]

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."




It kinda sounds like they want to eat their cake and have it too. They call it a continuing sacrifice with power made present through the Eucharist yet they also call it a memorial. It really is not a memorial if it has real power and what then did Jesus mean when on the cross he said "it is finished."

[darinhouston]

Perhaps, this is what Christ meant when He said "it is finished."

Matthew 5:18 (King James Version)

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He fulfilled it all at the Cross -- until then, He was careful to make sure the law kept its place -- after that, He brought a New covenant with a New application of the Law. That is not to say that we don't still have obligations -- they are now to the Law of Christ, and not the Law of Moses. That includes the moral law from the Torah but with a deeper more spiritual understanding now that we have the Holy Spirit and His Word to guide us.

[darinhouston]

Does this all really boil down to the debate between "free grace" and "Lordship salvation?"

[steve7150]

Does this all really boil down to the debate between "free grace" and "Lordship salvation?"







I think that's an element of it but the commentary i referenced was by John Macarthur who believes in Lordship salvation.

[darinhouston]

Here's a survey from the book (they say all should be false):

T/F?
1. Christians should ask God to forgive and cleanse them when they sin.
2. Christians struggle with sin because of their old self within.
3. We should wait on God even before making everyday decisions.
4. When we sin against God, we’re out of fellowship until we repent.
5. Old Testament law is written on Christians’ hearts so we want to obey it.
6. The Bible tells us that Christians can obtain many rewards in heaven.
7. Christians will give an account for their sins at the great white throne.
8. Christians should tithe at least 10 percent of their income to the church.
9. God gets angry with us when we repeatedly sin against him.
10. God looks at us as though we’re righteous, even though we’re really not.

[steve7150]

Here's a survey from the book (they say all should be false):

T/F?
1. Christians should ask God to forgive and cleanse them when they sin.
2. Christians struggle with sin because of their old self within.
3. We should wait on God even before making everyday decisions.
4. When we sin against God, we’re out of fellowship until we repent.
5. Old Testament law is written on Christians’ hearts so we want to obey it.
6. The Bible tells us that Christians can obtain many rewards in heaven.
7. Christians will give an account for their sins at the great white throne.
8. Christians should tithe at least 10 percent of their income to the church.
9. God gets angry with us when we repeatedly sin against him.
10. God looks at us as though we’re righteous, even though we’re really not.



I think this might be called radical grace.

[kaufmannphillips]

steve7150 wrote:
It kinda sounds like they want to eat their cake and have it too. They call it a continuing sacrifice with power made present through the Eucharist yet they also call it a memorial. It really is not a memorial if it has real power and what then did Jesus mean when on the cross he said "it is finished."

(a) What? Paradox in Christian thought? Well, I never...

If one has a leader who is both God and man, and followers who are both blameless and sinning, why not a sacrifice that is both past and present?

One might suppose that the Eucharist is simultaneously a memorial of an event that is past, and a materialization of that event's present-ness.

(b) The quote from the crucifixion narrative is brief and nebulous. It could be and has been construed in a number of differing ways.

[steve7150]

(a) What? Paradox in Christian thought? Well, I never...

If one has a leader who is both God and man, and followers who are both blameless and sinning, why not a sacrifice that is both past and present?



You have a fertile mind my friend. But there can be things a lot worse then blamelessness in sin, right? Sort of to good to be true except if it comes from God.