I have a general idea of his tactics, but where did he learn them from?His tactics on growing a church some what troubles me too, and where he learned it from.
Emerging church movement
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"How is it that Christians today will pay $20 to hear the latest Christian concert, but Jesus can't draw a crowd?"
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
Perhaps these links will be helpful
From CT:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/011/12.36.html
From Theooze:
http://www.theooze.com/about/index.cfm
From Next-Wave:
http://www.the-next-wave.org/about
From Relevant:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/wwa.php
From Leonard Sweet:
http://66.137.184.33/biocv.asp
From CT:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/011/12.36.html
From Theooze:
http://www.theooze.com/about/index.cfm
From Next-Wave:
http://www.the-next-wave.org/about
From Relevant:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/wwa.php
From Leonard Sweet:
http://66.137.184.33/biocv.asp
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
This may be the best summary I have found of the movement, in their own words. It's long, but I have bolded some important words/phrases that seem to define the movement as best I can tell.
95 Postmodern Thesiis
In 1517 Martin Luther wrote “95 Theses” and “posted” them on the door of the church and it started a reformation. in 1998 (I do not intent to start a reformation) I post these “95 Postmodern Theses’” on the Internet in hopes of waking people to the coming changes in the church.
while we admit that most of the strives made in the postmodern movement are made by our generation, we refuse to label the movement a "generation" movement. it is beyond generations, beyond social class, beyond race - it is a God thing.
COMMUNITY
We reject the term “church” for the more descriptive term “community of faith.” A community of faith must be relevant, because God is always relevant. A community of faith is solid on Christ and seeks to help people develop a deeper relationship with God, others and self. A community of faith has more meaning, and is both descriptive and suggestive of who we are and what we seek to become. A community of faith understands there are two conversations taking place, one inside and one outside, and both are valid and hold meaning. A community of faith understands and encourages those outside to bring their conversation inside, without fear of retaliation and share their voice with us. A community of faith maintains and develops community for those inside and outside the community. A community of faith is made of living, active people, and not blind sheep. A community of faith enables powerful new forms of social organization and empowers people to act upon their individual calling. A community of faith encourages and develops the exchange of knowledge. A community of faith encourages networking among all people of faith. A community of faith is a place where broken people can come and find wholeness and seek the true power and mystery of God in their lives. A community of faith rejects rhetoric and denominational politics and seeks understanding on all ends. A community of faith is transparent, open and honest; it hides nothing. A community of faith seeks to open conversation with others. A community of faith is based on wanting to know more about God, and our relationship with Him. A community of faith sees the contemporary church, as a “commercial” for what a community of faith should be all about. A community of faith shares the concerns of the community, with all members of the community. A community of faith sees the “secret language” of the church as a dog-and-pony show designed to separate “us” from “them.” We see this as unacceptable and destructive. A community of faith is tolerant of those who are different in their selection of music, or style of worship. We do not believe “we got it right.” We simply believe, we got it right for us. A community of faith holds no secrets – no secrets. A community of faith is based on trust – absolute trust. A community of faith scares the contemporary church – rightly so. A community of faith is motivated by God, and a desire to share God with the world. A community of faith is hyper linked and connected. A community of faith is not interested in hucksters, TV Evangelists, or other hustlers after our money. A community of faith is directly involved in the action – we want to get dirty; we are “date book” people, not “check book” people. A community of faith wants to participate in conversations where people are truly being helped. We are not interested in talking for the sake of talking. A community of faith encourages people to “de-cloak” and get personal; we care about people at all levels, and encourage them to be who they are and we will accept them. A community of faith is learning to speak with a human voice and not with tricks; people understand and desire plain language. A community of faith is more then a brochure, a youth group, a singles ministry, or the design of our building – it is people. A community of faith is not interested in developing eye candy; we seek substance for the mind, soul and body. A community of faith wants to be taken seriously – not as serious as the church takes itself – but we want a voice. A community of faith is open to the fact that when we have questions we seek out each other for answers, because the traditional and contemporary church both find questions uncomfortable to answer – we do not mind a “we don’t know” as an answer. A community of faith encourages people to work from both the inside and the outside to take down the wall that divide people based on social condition, race or class. A community of faith is linked to other communities of faith; they form a “faith ring.” A community of faith recognizes each other as such from the sound of their respective voice. A community of faith is open to new ideas, new tools, and a deeper understanding of God and people. A community of faith is based on interaction with open and honest communication with all.
PEOPLE
As people, we operate both inside and outside a community of faith – but we are people of faith 24/7. As people, we see boundaries as just an annoyance to reality. We know they'll be down soon, and we will keep chipping away until they are. As people, we do not separate the secular from the sacred. We see God operating in all aspects of out lives, and in the lives of others. As people, we are open to technology, but we do not let tech rule our lives. As people, we understand our culture, and want others to understand it also. As people, we place great value in our family, friends, allies and acquaintances. As people, we do not see ourselves in you (the church), because we know we're already elsewhere. As people, we know we have choices and we will make them – even if you do not like the ones we make. As people, we don't recognize ourselves in your surroundings. As people, we are workers, and not just givers. As people, we want you to drop your pretense of “importance,” and come out and play.
CHURCHES
Churches, while claiming to understand community, have no realization of what a community truly is all about. Church people talk to each other and this is usually a destructive habit based on judgment of others. Churches must ask themselves where their own interests end and the interest of others begin. Churches need to know that if their interests begin before those of the community ends, they will have no community. Churches that do not see the importance of a postmodern community of faith will die. Churches that maintain the “religion of man” over a relationship with God will die. Churches are based on a rigid “top-down” relationship and need to develop a “bottom-up” system. People are the church, not the Pastoral Staff. Churches tend to be motivated by money, and the need to “fill the pews” to “increase collections.” A Church’s “command-style management” is destructive and reinforce bureaucracy. Church is unwilling to recognize any other voice, and sees it as destructive and “wrong.” Church sees itself as a community that is actively encouraging conversation with the outside, but they are not – they have become their own best listeners Churches tend to have a tight rein on "their people;” telling them what to think and how to think it. Churches lack substance. Churches tend to be impressed by their own importance. Churches base this importance on size and program structure; they do not impress us. Churches that have no understanding of this world have no future. Churches have spent billions of dollars on evangelism over the past 10 years, and the church has grown only 4.6%, while the population has increased 10.5% - hint. Churches that speak in a language that is distant, uninviting, and arrogant build walls that keep people away from getting to know God. Churches that don't realize people seek person-to-person relationships, are dieing on the vine and missing their greatest opportunity to share God with the world around them. Churches simply do not, or choice not, to see that people "outside the church are laughing at them. Churches and denominations need to develop a sense of humor, learn to laugh at themselves. Churches need to understand that conversations between people sounds human; they are conducted in a human voice. They are not based on theological terms that hold no meaning to people outside the inner circle. Denominational loyalty is a thing of the past. Most people, both inside and outside of the church, do not know the difference between denominations.
PASTORAL STAFF
Pastoral Staff view the church they serve as a folic symbol – “mine is bigger then yours.” Pastoral Staff is too busy "being the boss" to talk with the people, answer their own phones or respond by email (if they even have email) – they see themselves as “important.” Pastoral Staff needs to pay attention. They need to stop having people go through a gauntlet of secretaries and pastoral assistances to seek their wisdom. Pastoral Staff act like the CEO and VP’s and make themselves more important then they truly are. Pastoral Staff needs to realize that the “bottom line” is not important. What is important is the condition of the people’s relationship with Jesus Christ. Pastoral Staff need to come down off the “high-horse” and get connected to the people. Pastoral Staff needs to allow people to see them as humans who make mistakes and learn from the experience.
CONCLUSION
Generally speaking, we have better things to do than worry when you will open up. Even at our worst, we are open to new experiences; and at our best we can change the world. Our allegiance is not to the church, but to God. Building community is more important then building a building – people over property. Whether delivering information, opinions, perspectives, dissenting arguments or humorous asides, the human voice is typically open, natural, uncontrived. The Internet is enabling conversations between people that was simply not possible in the era of mass media. “Power trips” maintain the status quo of the church and the culture of paranoia. Paranoia kills the spirit and depletes the mind. Millions of people now perceive the church as little more than a quaint place for weddings, funerals and the occasional baptism – it makes Grandmother happy, and looks good in pictures. By ignoring what is being said, the church is preventing the conversations from developing any true meaning.
To the church we say, “tell us something with meaning, we are tired of the rhetoric.” To the church we say, “Why are you not listening to us? You seem to be talking about us, but not to us.” To the church we say, “If you don't see the light, it is because you closed the door and shut the blinds.” To the church we say, “It would be a very big mistake to think we're holding our breath for change, while you hold committee meetings to discus the possibility of meeting our needs – we are finding and developing places outside of you where we are growing as Christians.” We do not see the Postmodern Age as the end of the Christian faith; we see it as a time of deepening faith and coming to a deeper understanding of God and Jesus in our lives.
John O'Keefe (1997)
95 Postmodern Thesiis
In 1517 Martin Luther wrote “95 Theses” and “posted” them on the door of the church and it started a reformation. in 1998 (I do not intent to start a reformation) I post these “95 Postmodern Theses’” on the Internet in hopes of waking people to the coming changes in the church.
while we admit that most of the strives made in the postmodern movement are made by our generation, we refuse to label the movement a "generation" movement. it is beyond generations, beyond social class, beyond race - it is a God thing.
COMMUNITY
We reject the term “church” for the more descriptive term “community of faith.” A community of faith must be relevant, because God is always relevant. A community of faith is solid on Christ and seeks to help people develop a deeper relationship with God, others and self. A community of faith has more meaning, and is both descriptive and suggestive of who we are and what we seek to become. A community of faith understands there are two conversations taking place, one inside and one outside, and both are valid and hold meaning. A community of faith understands and encourages those outside to bring their conversation inside, without fear of retaliation and share their voice with us. A community of faith maintains and develops community for those inside and outside the community. A community of faith is made of living, active people, and not blind sheep. A community of faith enables powerful new forms of social organization and empowers people to act upon their individual calling. A community of faith encourages and develops the exchange of knowledge. A community of faith encourages networking among all people of faith. A community of faith is a place where broken people can come and find wholeness and seek the true power and mystery of God in their lives. A community of faith rejects rhetoric and denominational politics and seeks understanding on all ends. A community of faith is transparent, open and honest; it hides nothing. A community of faith seeks to open conversation with others. A community of faith is based on wanting to know more about God, and our relationship with Him. A community of faith sees the contemporary church, as a “commercial” for what a community of faith should be all about. A community of faith shares the concerns of the community, with all members of the community. A community of faith sees the “secret language” of the church as a dog-and-pony show designed to separate “us” from “them.” We see this as unacceptable and destructive. A community of faith is tolerant of those who are different in their selection of music, or style of worship. We do not believe “we got it right.” We simply believe, we got it right for us. A community of faith holds no secrets – no secrets. A community of faith is based on trust – absolute trust. A community of faith scares the contemporary church – rightly so. A community of faith is motivated by God, and a desire to share God with the world. A community of faith is hyper linked and connected. A community of faith is not interested in hucksters, TV Evangelists, or other hustlers after our money. A community of faith is directly involved in the action – we want to get dirty; we are “date book” people, not “check book” people. A community of faith wants to participate in conversations where people are truly being helped. We are not interested in talking for the sake of talking. A community of faith encourages people to “de-cloak” and get personal; we care about people at all levels, and encourage them to be who they are and we will accept them. A community of faith is learning to speak with a human voice and not with tricks; people understand and desire plain language. A community of faith is more then a brochure, a youth group, a singles ministry, or the design of our building – it is people. A community of faith is not interested in developing eye candy; we seek substance for the mind, soul and body. A community of faith wants to be taken seriously – not as serious as the church takes itself – but we want a voice. A community of faith is open to the fact that when we have questions we seek out each other for answers, because the traditional and contemporary church both find questions uncomfortable to answer – we do not mind a “we don’t know” as an answer. A community of faith encourages people to work from both the inside and the outside to take down the wall that divide people based on social condition, race or class. A community of faith is linked to other communities of faith; they form a “faith ring.” A community of faith recognizes each other as such from the sound of their respective voice. A community of faith is open to new ideas, new tools, and a deeper understanding of God and people. A community of faith is based on interaction with open and honest communication with all.
PEOPLE
As people, we operate both inside and outside a community of faith – but we are people of faith 24/7. As people, we see boundaries as just an annoyance to reality. We know they'll be down soon, and we will keep chipping away until they are. As people, we do not separate the secular from the sacred. We see God operating in all aspects of out lives, and in the lives of others. As people, we are open to technology, but we do not let tech rule our lives. As people, we understand our culture, and want others to understand it also. As people, we place great value in our family, friends, allies and acquaintances. As people, we do not see ourselves in you (the church), because we know we're already elsewhere. As people, we know we have choices and we will make them – even if you do not like the ones we make. As people, we don't recognize ourselves in your surroundings. As people, we are workers, and not just givers. As people, we want you to drop your pretense of “importance,” and come out and play.
CHURCHES
Churches, while claiming to understand community, have no realization of what a community truly is all about. Church people talk to each other and this is usually a destructive habit based on judgment of others. Churches must ask themselves where their own interests end and the interest of others begin. Churches need to know that if their interests begin before those of the community ends, they will have no community. Churches that do not see the importance of a postmodern community of faith will die. Churches that maintain the “religion of man” over a relationship with God will die. Churches are based on a rigid “top-down” relationship and need to develop a “bottom-up” system. People are the church, not the Pastoral Staff. Churches tend to be motivated by money, and the need to “fill the pews” to “increase collections.” A Church’s “command-style management” is destructive and reinforce bureaucracy. Church is unwilling to recognize any other voice, and sees it as destructive and “wrong.” Church sees itself as a community that is actively encouraging conversation with the outside, but they are not – they have become their own best listeners Churches tend to have a tight rein on "their people;” telling them what to think and how to think it. Churches lack substance. Churches tend to be impressed by their own importance. Churches base this importance on size and program structure; they do not impress us. Churches that have no understanding of this world have no future. Churches have spent billions of dollars on evangelism over the past 10 years, and the church has grown only 4.6%, while the population has increased 10.5% - hint. Churches that speak in a language that is distant, uninviting, and arrogant build walls that keep people away from getting to know God. Churches that don't realize people seek person-to-person relationships, are dieing on the vine and missing their greatest opportunity to share God with the world around them. Churches simply do not, or choice not, to see that people "outside the church are laughing at them. Churches and denominations need to develop a sense of humor, learn to laugh at themselves. Churches need to understand that conversations between people sounds human; they are conducted in a human voice. They are not based on theological terms that hold no meaning to people outside the inner circle. Denominational loyalty is a thing of the past. Most people, both inside and outside of the church, do not know the difference between denominations.
PASTORAL STAFF
Pastoral Staff view the church they serve as a folic symbol – “mine is bigger then yours.” Pastoral Staff is too busy "being the boss" to talk with the people, answer their own phones or respond by email (if they even have email) – they see themselves as “important.” Pastoral Staff needs to pay attention. They need to stop having people go through a gauntlet of secretaries and pastoral assistances to seek their wisdom. Pastoral Staff act like the CEO and VP’s and make themselves more important then they truly are. Pastoral Staff needs to realize that the “bottom line” is not important. What is important is the condition of the people’s relationship with Jesus Christ. Pastoral Staff need to come down off the “high-horse” and get connected to the people. Pastoral Staff needs to allow people to see them as humans who make mistakes and learn from the experience.
CONCLUSION
Generally speaking, we have better things to do than worry when you will open up. Even at our worst, we are open to new experiences; and at our best we can change the world. Our allegiance is not to the church, but to God. Building community is more important then building a building – people over property. Whether delivering information, opinions, perspectives, dissenting arguments or humorous asides, the human voice is typically open, natural, uncontrived. The Internet is enabling conversations between people that was simply not possible in the era of mass media. “Power trips” maintain the status quo of the church and the culture of paranoia. Paranoia kills the spirit and depletes the mind. Millions of people now perceive the church as little more than a quaint place for weddings, funerals and the occasional baptism – it makes Grandmother happy, and looks good in pictures. By ignoring what is being said, the church is preventing the conversations from developing any true meaning.
To the church we say, “tell us something with meaning, we are tired of the rhetoric.” To the church we say, “Why are you not listening to us? You seem to be talking about us, but not to us.” To the church we say, “If you don't see the light, it is because you closed the door and shut the blinds.” To the church we say, “It would be a very big mistake to think we're holding our breath for change, while you hold committee meetings to discus the possibility of meeting our needs – we are finding and developing places outside of you where we are growing as Christians.” We do not see the Postmodern Age as the end of the Christian faith; we see it as a time of deepening faith and coming to a deeper understanding of God and Jesus in our lives.
John O'Keefe (1997)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
Interesting topic; do not know much about it other than the Christianity Today article. Also interesting is the Unitarians are also pursuing this path, at least in some locations.
I heartily agree with Michael 418. I have said the much the same to the leaders of the congregation where we attend.
Seems to me we should be trying to restore the church to its early form as many movements have attempted to do. Modern evangelicalism has a ways to go in this respect. A wise observer once remarked that the Reformers ran so hard in their escape from Babylon that in some respects they ran right past Jerusalem!
As mentioned in the Christianity Today article, some of the practices of modern evangelicals were unknown in the church for most of its history.
Dallas Willard was mentioned in the CT article. I am presently about 2/3 through his book "The Divine Conspiracy" and so far I'm very impressed. He has many profound things to say about being Jesus' disciple. I do not know if he is associated with the subject movement or if they simply like what he has to say. Anyone know anything about this?
My take on Post-modernism is very unfavorable. As I understand their view of God, He is not active in the natural world at all, He only works through people to the extent that He is able to influence them. If people do not act, He is as helpless as the god the Deists imagined.
Yours in Christ, Homer
I heartily agree with Michael 418. I have said the much the same to the leaders of the congregation where we attend.
Seems to me we should be trying to restore the church to its early form as many movements have attempted to do. Modern evangelicalism has a ways to go in this respect. A wise observer once remarked that the Reformers ran so hard in their escape from Babylon that in some respects they ran right past Jerusalem!
As mentioned in the Christianity Today article, some of the practices of modern evangelicals were unknown in the church for most of its history.
Dallas Willard was mentioned in the CT article. I am presently about 2/3 through his book "The Divine Conspiracy" and so far I'm very impressed. He has many profound things to say about being Jesus' disciple. I do not know if he is associated with the subject movement or if they simply like what he has to say. Anyone know anything about this?
My take on Post-modernism is very unfavorable. As I understand their view of God, He is not active in the natural world at all, He only works through people to the extent that He is able to influence them. If people do not act, He is as helpless as the god the Deists imagined.
Yours in Christ, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
-
_Anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:03 pm
Hey Guys,
First, thanks for the 95 theses from mattrose. I think this is very helpful in understanding the movement better.
Second, Let me answer Rae question. I was searching the internet on this issue. I came up on a article on Rick Warren but the person who wrote it was a surpise to me because he critized him and the movement. I mean a Norman Geisler, James R White, Hank Hanegraaff would be no surpise, but when I found out is was Greg Laurie, I was pretty surprised. While I not a big fan of Greg Laurie (not saying anything bad or anything) I know he holds to the faith. I sure he'll stand for truth as well. He doesn't strike me to be a apologist like the guys above. So here is the website: http://www.myfortress.org/greglauriechurchgrowth.html
and this will help to understand where his tactics came from.
http://www.myfortress.org/RickWarren.html
Let me say this, his 5 purposes for a church like Worship, discipleship, evangelism etc. I have no disagreement with, I know scripture teaches that. I just feel like it's to get people in church no matter what and church will save you. Let me put this way, a lot of people have this idea that invite people to church and everything is okay and that's how the sinner will become a saint. ( Not saying it's wrong to invite people to church , this is a very good thing.) But I always say while the pastor is a Christian and should be witnessing on his own personal time, but his job in the pulpit is to equip the saint for works of service. Sherpards protect the sheep, they don't produce them. Sheep produce sheep.
mattrose, Thank you for the links.
Homer, God bless for speaking to the leaders to your church.
in his name,
Michael
Anyone live in LA? or LA county?
First, thanks for the 95 theses from mattrose. I think this is very helpful in understanding the movement better.
Second, Let me answer Rae question. I was searching the internet on this issue. I came up on a article on Rick Warren but the person who wrote it was a surpise to me because he critized him and the movement. I mean a Norman Geisler, James R White, Hank Hanegraaff would be no surpise, but when I found out is was Greg Laurie, I was pretty surprised. While I not a big fan of Greg Laurie (not saying anything bad or anything) I know he holds to the faith. I sure he'll stand for truth as well. He doesn't strike me to be a apologist like the guys above. So here is the website: http://www.myfortress.org/greglauriechurchgrowth.html
and this will help to understand where his tactics came from.
http://www.myfortress.org/RickWarren.html
Let me say this, his 5 purposes for a church like Worship, discipleship, evangelism etc. I have no disagreement with, I know scripture teaches that. I just feel like it's to get people in church no matter what and church will save you. Let me put this way, a lot of people have this idea that invite people to church and everything is okay and that's how the sinner will become a saint. ( Not saying it's wrong to invite people to church , this is a very good thing.) But I always say while the pastor is a Christian and should be witnessing on his own personal time, but his job in the pulpit is to equip the saint for works of service. Sherpards protect the sheep, they don't produce them. Sheep produce sheep.
mattrose, Thank you for the links.
Homer, God bless for speaking to the leaders to your church.
in his name,
Michael
Anyone live in LA? or LA county?
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
The more I hear Rick Warren speak....and think about his books....the more I think he's extremely on target. I think it's easy to see the dangers in being 'seeker sensitive,' but I think any error that would be made in these regards would be an error of mis-understanding Warren. I think he is a genuinely gifted, Spirit-fillled leader with a heart for lost people.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
This is from the USA Today article and is one of their biggest attacks on Warren:
My hope would be that they took his quote out of context. Anyone know anything futher?... it's hard for me to believe that he would include mormons and Jews in "other denominations"... but I guess it's possible that he would.Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.
"I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"How is it that Christians today will pay $20 to hear the latest Christian concert, but Jesus can't draw a crowd?"
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
- Jim Cymbala (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) on prayer meetings
The part that mentions Mormons and Jews is not part of the quote. There are probably a couple of issues here.
1. The author of the article probably views mormons as simply another Chrisitian denomination.
2. Rick Warren does, in fact, allow anyone and everyone to sit under his leadership training seminars. What is wrong with that? I think it's a great thing.
3. Ravi Zacharias recently spoke at the big mormon get-together, no? I think that was a great thing too.
4. The purpose of the body of Christ is not to point out everyone that is wrong, it's to point them all to the Truth.
5. Warren's books (more thorough than a single quote) express a clear orthodoxy.
1. The author of the article probably views mormons as simply another Chrisitian denomination.
2. Rick Warren does, in fact, allow anyone and everyone to sit under his leadership training seminars. What is wrong with that? I think it's a great thing.
3. Ravi Zacharias recently spoke at the big mormon get-together, no? I think that was a great thing too.
4. The purpose of the body of Christ is not to point out everyone that is wrong, it's to point them all to the Truth.
5. Warren's books (more thorough than a single quote) express a clear orthodoxy.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
-
_Anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:03 pm
postmodern church/seeker sensitive
Hi everyone,
I'm new to the discussion.
I'm so fustrated with the seeker sensitive stuff. I mean what about all the rest of the people, who have gone to church for years. All of a sudden, everything changes and the church focus is winning people from the pulpit, not feeding. Not any of us! This is the church that I am involved in right now. I am sick to think that many will like this seminar way of preaching buut never hunger for the Word as it truely is. My heart is broken, and my family is stepping out of service positions along with many other. We are looking for a new church.
I was told by a friend at church that about 80 % of people attending don't go to bible study. Ok, if that is true than if they don't get the word from the pulpit where will they get it. It's all so watered down!!! I can't see God being happy with this at all.
Thanks for listening
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_Anonymous
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:03 pm
postmodern church/seeker sensitive
Hi everyone,
I'm new to the discussion.
I'm so fustrated with the seeker sensitive stuff. I mean what about all the rest of the people, who have gone to church for years. All of a sudden, everything changes and the church focus is winning people from the pulpit, not feeding. Not any of us! This is the church that I am involved in right now. I am sick to think that many will like this seminar way of preaching buut never hunger for the Word as it truely is. My heart is broken, and my family is stepping out of service positions along with many other. We are looking for a new church.
I was told by a friend at church that about 80 % of people attending don't go to bible study. Ok, if that is true than if they don't get the word from the pulpit where will they get it. It's all so watered down!!! I can't see God being happy with this at all.
Thanks for listening
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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