Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:01 pm

TheEditor wrote:
For me to believe what all 1st century believers believed, puts me on safe and firm ground. If I sin, they sinned, and Jesus himself is a deceiver. Since this is an impossibility, I'll stay this course without any reservations


Robby, perhaps you can flesh this thought out a bit for me, specifically the highlighted portions.

Regards, Brenden.
Hi Brenden,

Yes, my point is that no NT author, to include Jesus, believed the eminent prophecies foretold and/or applied to their generation had anything to do with future events outside their generation. So I believe what they believed, for they were authoritative and inspired being 100% correct in their timing of the events. Therefore, how could I be wrong in my judgement to actually believe what they said? For if they were wrong, they were not inspired and Christianity FAILS!

I'm more interested in the nature of the events that were foretold and indeed transpired almost 2000 years ago. To argue the time statements is unproductive, putting inspired scripture in error - as the atheists are so eager to point out. Hopefully this explains my comment. God bless!

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TheEditor
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by TheEditor » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:51 pm

Hi Robby,

I think I get what you are saying, but two points still need to be cleared up for me. First, how does "your sinning" have anything to do with "their sinning"? especially as it pertains to this topic? And, secondly, do you believe all statements regarding judgment that seem prophetic in nature (ie. parable of the sheep and goats; wheat and the weeds, etc) had their fullfillment in the first century? And if so, how?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:38 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Robby,

I think I get what you are saying, but two points still need to be cleared up for me. First, how does "your sinning" have anything to do with "their sinning"? especially as it pertains to this topic? And, secondly, do you believe all statements regarding judgment that seem prophetic in nature (ie. parable of the sheep and goats; wheat and the weeds, etc) had their fullfillment in the first century? And if so, how?

Regards, Brenden.
Brenden, sorry for the confusion. Let me clarify. I was hypothetically comparing their error and being false prophets (sin), to my sin in believing their lies. But they weren't false prophets so that puts me in total agreement with them concerning their time statements regarding the prophecies. So rephrased, it's; If I sin (believing their false prophecies), they sinned (because they are false prophets).

Regarding your second point, I would have to address each statement separately. For example, you mentioned the parable of the sheep and goats found in Matt 25:31-32, Yes, this took place in the first century at the parousia, please compare with Matt 16:27, 28. You also mentioned the wheat and the tares found in Matt 13:30, Yes, this took place in the first century as well, please compare with Matt 24:31 and notice vs.33, this is what the disciples are to look for, not us nor anyone outside their generation. Remember, Jesus is answering Peter, James, John and Andrew's questions that they asked him in private (Mark 13:3). The timing of these events were for them, and there is no justification to make Jesus out to be a false prophet by misleading or worst, lying to them.

God bless!

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by TheEditor » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:35 pm

Hi Robby,

Okay, I see where you are coming from. I can't say I agree with the fully realized preterist position. I find that hammer-locking onself into a grid; futurist/preterist/dramatacist/historicist position, always lead to some incongruity. Though I can see that the "generation" of Matthew 24 was likely Jesus' 1st century listeners, I can't say as I see any compelling reason to lump the parables in wih the rest. The parables speak of the permeating effect of Christianity in the parable of the woman and the dough; they speak of the response of the hearer with the parable of the sower; they speak of the indiscriminate nature of the gospel message and how both good and bad fish are caught by it; they tell of the small beginnings of the Gospel and the tremendous growth of Christianity in the parable of the mustard seed; they tell of not judging anyone before the time, in the parable of the wheat and the weeds. I see no reason to see these parables as "fully realized" in 70 AD.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:58 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Robby,

Okay, I see where you are coming from. I can't say I agree with the fully realized preterist position. I find that hammer-locking onself into a grid; futurist/preterist/dramatacist/historicist position, always lead to some incongruity. Though I can see that the "generation" of Matthew 24 was likely Jesus' 1st century listeners, I can't say as I see any compelling reason to lump the parables in wih the rest. The parables speak of the permeating effect of Christianity in the parable of the woman and the dough; they speak of the response of the hearer with the parable of the sower; they speak of the indiscriminate nature of the gospel message and how both good and bad fish are caught by it; they tell of the small beginnings of the Gospel and the tremendous growth of Christianity in the parable of the mustard seed; they tell of not judging anyone before the time, in the parable of the wheat and the weeds. I see no reason to see these parables as "fully realized" in 70 AD.

Regards, Brenden.
Brenden, thanks for you thoughts on the matter. But hammer-locking myself into what Jesus and The Apostles framed into an inescapable grid of audience relevance and 1st century time parameters is not my speculation and paradigm, but theirs! Brenden, I gave you crystal clear exegesis on the two parables and how they directly related to 1st century fulfillment. Read it again, the entire conversation and expectations regarded them not us. How on earth did we ever allow someone to dupe us into believing what was written to our dear 1st century brethren, with the direct promises and expectations, was really not concerning them but to people 100, 500, 1000, 2000 yrs. and counting, into the future! Do you actually believe the statements you read in the bible concerning private conversations and written letters addressed to real churches wasn't meant for the people being addressed? These people were promised great and dreadful things, please read the NT, start anywhere you like, but STOP reading yourself into the conversations. Then you will see clearly what is going on with our dear brethren who underwent all these things you are wishing upon yourself. Sorry, it was for them, not us.

You will see clearly and never again suggest that I am mistaken, for if I'm mistaken, they were mistaken and that's an impossibility.

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by TheEditor » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:16 am

Robby,

Hmm. Excuse me, but, to quote Shakespeare, me thinks thou dost protest too much. Slow down. Take a deep breath. We weren’t discussing whether or not the Apostles were writing a letter to me personally, or to the Romans, Corinthians, etc.. I was asking about your view on the parables of Christ. I’m not sure where the frenetic energy is coming from.

A little background: I was raised a JW. I was steeped in “reading ourselves into the entire Bible”. I ran as far away from that mindset as possible. However, I want to arrive at what I consider to be the closest thing to the truth as I can with my imperfect mind and biases (which we all have, no matter how hard we try). However, I will not approach the Scriptures with a “for if I’m mistaken, they were mistaken and that’s an impossibility” mindset.

Secondly, not only did you not give me “crystal clear” exegesis, you gave me no real exegesis at all. Similar wording does not constitute exegesis. I merely asked if you believed that the parables were all fulfilled in the first century. Apparently the answer is Yes. I fail to see how all of them could be, given the fact that the Kingdom of Christ still appears to be on earth; good fish and bad are still being drawn into the dragnet of the Gospel message; weeds still appear to be among the wheat and Christianity still appears to have a permeating effect on society. But, perhaps all of this came to fruition in 70 AD as well.

Where in my question did you intuit that I didn’t believe the Epistles were for their intended audience? You seem to be using quite a bump of your imagination. Is that a preterist tendancy? Lol...

And, why is it that most preterists (btw the way, for the record, I don't really have a dog in the fight, as my faith isn't hinged on eschatology) tend to be real zealots for others to be disabused of their notions? Does this issue have anything at all to do with accepting the eye-witness testimony regarding the Christ?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:32 am

Good Morning Brenden,

So there is no confusion, we'll go as slow as the conversation dictates. Going back to the two parables, what is it that you read differently from my understanding of audience relevance and time parameters in the text?

God Bless!

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TheEditor
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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by TheEditor » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:55 pm

Hi Robby,

Specifically dealing with the wheat and weeds; Jesus gave this illustration in amongst a numer of illustrations as I listed earlier. Just as we do not know which professed followers of Jesus are among the fine soils; or which are among the bad fish; neither do we know yet which are among the weeds and which are among the wheat,

If all of Jesus parables were prophetic telling of events that somehow saw their fulfillment in 70 AD, then I may as well redact them from my translation of the Scriptures. The disciples did not give their testimony as to how these parables were fulfilled in 70, so it's mere empty verbiage. If a person wants to interpret Jesus words about the destruction of Jerusalem and it's being fulfilled in "that generation", then the historical accuracy of Jesus prophecy has merit for us as it establishes him as a true prophet.

However, there is no such historical testimony by secular historians nor any of the disciples or apostles that Jesus parables were fulfilled at that time. One can easily see the historical event of "the disgusting thing standing in a holy place" via the Roman armies, but what historical event shows Jesus seperating sheep from goats? good fish from bad? wheat from weeds? Why the need to say that the wheat were gathered in 70? Why wouldn't this simply be an illustration of final judgment for all mankind? What great machinery is disrupted by this interpretation? What in Jesus' words demands this understanding?

Regards, Brenden
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:38 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Robby,

Specifically dealing with the wheat and weeds; Jesus gave this illustration in amongst a numer of illustrations as I listed earlier. Just as we do not know which professed followers of Jesus are among the fine soils; or which are among the bad fish; neither do we know yet which are among the weeds and which are among the wheat,

Regards, Brenden
Hi Brenden, I disagree and will give my reasons in 2 points:

1. Matt 13:39-40(NIV) clearly speaks of the harvest of the weeds at the "end of the age", which is the "Old Covenant Age". The Disciples clearly understood the nature and timing of these things Matt 13:51.
2. The end of the "Old Covenant Age" was promised and prophesied to be fulfilled in the 1st Century. Matt 24:3, Matt 28:20.

Audience Relevance places the "end of the age" clearly in the 1st Century - for in Jesus own words to his disciples are without controversy, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

God Bless!

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Re: Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative by Sam Storms

Post by TheEditor » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:53 am

So Jesus is no longer with us then Robby?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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