Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post Reply
User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by mattrose » Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:30 pm

Steve,

I was wondering how recently you've taught your 'charisma and character' series. I've been listening to it (I think this is my 2nd time through) and it really feels like you yourself had many unanswered questions about the material (specifically in the 'charisma' section). I was curious if you have plans to re-do this series in the near future and if you have any new leanings.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by steve » Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:15 pm

Hi Matt,

The series is at least 15 years old, if not older. I am not aware of any significant changes in my views on the charismata that have occurred in the time since then. Probably, there have been some minor points upon which I have gained more or less certainty than I had when I taught the series, but overall I am not sure what I would say differently, if I were to teach it again. Having said that, I would still enjoy re-teaching it sometime, just to get better and more up-to-date recordings of the set.

I still have a lot of uncertainty about how some of the gifts are to be defined, and in what settings they are appropriate. Are there some specific points that you have found questions about?

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by mattrose » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:27 am

steve wrote:Are there some specific points that you have found questions about?
1. Do you still see the gifts of healings as likely applying to those that are healed?
2. Do you still connect 'showing mercy' to evangelism?
3. Do you lean toward the idea that the OFFICES of Apostle and Prophet have passed away?
4. Do you tend to see spiritual gifts as 'resident' or flowing freely between members regularly?
5. Do you think God's ideal is that prophecies be uttered at every Christian gathering?

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by steve » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:04 am

Hi Matt,

Here is my best attempt to answer your questions:

1. Do you still see the gifts of healings as likely applying to those that are healed?

This is an opinion that was original with me, in that I have not heard it expressed by any other teachers, to my knowledge. This means I cannot be totally confident about it. It still seems likely to me, however, since an actual gift of being able to supernaturally heal people would seem largely indistinguishable from the gift of being able to work miracles, which is listed separately.

2. Do you still connect 'showing mercy' to evangelism?

I don't recall that being my opinion anytime in the recent past, and I am surptised if I expressed it in the lectures. I think the gift of showing mercy is more along the lines of what Mother Theresa did. What the Samaritan man did for the man who fell among theives was referred, in the account, to "showing mercy" to him. I also think that this can refer to a gift of hospitality, especially in the case where the guests are strangers or truly needy people.

3. Do you lean toward the idea that the OFFICES of Apostle and Prophet have passed away?

I am still skeptical about their presence in the modern church, but not dead-set against the suggestion that they still exist.

4. Do you tend to see spiritual gifts as 'resident' or flowing freely between members regularly?

If I understand your question correctly, think "resident" would be the paradigm that fits best the observable phenomena. The Bible is not quite clear.

5. Do you think God's ideal is that prophecies be uttered at every Christian gathering?

Yes, but there is some question as to what prophecy should look like. A "Thus saith the Lord..." utterance may be our first impression of the term. However, since Caiaphas prophesied without realizing it, it may be fairly common for casual utterances by Spirit-filled people to be instances of inadvertent prophecy. I can't say for sure.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by mattrose » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:51 am

Thanks so much for your quick and helpful reply :)
1. Do you still see the gifts of healings as likely applying to those that are healed?

This is an opinion that was original with me, in that I have not heard it expressed by any other teachers, to my knowledge. This means I cannot be totally confident about it. It still seems likely to me, however, since an actual gift of being able to supernaturally heal people would seem largely indistinguishable from the gift of being able to work miracles, which is listed separately.
Well, I found your argument convincing and recently shared this view as my preferred interpretation. The class seemed to think it made sense as well.
2. Do you still connect 'showing mercy' to evangelism?

I don't recall that being my opinion anytime in the recent past, and I am surptised if I expressed it in the lectures. I think the gift of showing mercy is more along the lines of what Mother Theresa did. What the Samaritan man did for the man who fell among theives was referred, in the account, to "showing mercy" to him. I also think that this can refer to a gift of hospitality, especially in the case where the guests are strangers or truly needy people.
In the recording you said something about changing your mind the very morning you gave the lecture. You said when you looked up the Greek it led you to the view that there was no difference b/w 'showing mercy' and 'evangelism.' With a little research, I could see why one might think that, but I found the interpretation doubtful and taught the gift more along the lines of what you said in the above post.
4. Do you tend to see spiritual gifts as 'resident' or flowing freely between members regularly?

If I understand your question correctly, think "resident" would be the paradigm that fits best the observable phenomena. The Bible is not quite clear.
Just to clarify, by 'resident' (a word you used in the lecture), I just mean that a person is given a gift at conversion that resides with them, generally, throughout the remainder of their Christian walk. This would be opposed to a view that spiritual gifts are more occasional (someone might be given a gift of X at Tuesday's gathering, Y on Wednesday, and Z on Thursday). I agree with you that while the latter is certainly possible, residency seems to be the norm.
5. Do you think God's ideal is that prophecies be uttered at every Christian gathering?

Yes, but there is some question as to what prophecy should look like. A "Thus saith the Lord..." utterance may be our first impression of the term. However, since Caiaphas prophesied without realizing it, it may be fairly common for casual utterances by Spirit-filled people to be instances of inadvertent prophecy. I can't say for sure.
A lot of the literature I've read on spiritual gifts in the past few months simply equates preaching with prophecy. I find this to be a cop out to some degree. A lot of 'preaching' is exegetical or topical teaching (explaining prior revelation) whereas prophecy, it seems to me, is fresh revelation. Additionally, preaching is often done by a select few whereas I think God would be pleased to have many prophecy.

But your answer could feel like a cop-out too. In absence of obvious prophetic utterances we just call casual utterances by God's people prophecy. One could accuse you of changing the target to match where the arrow hit, eh? I'm not trying to be confrontational... just trying to figure this out :)

I think it's an important question b/c if God would be pleased to have prophetic utterances in every gathering I want to work hard to try to create an environment where that is welcomed in my ministry. This would be against the grain of current practice. I was convicted, in my studies, by the line about eagerly desiring the gift of prophecy. I asked myself... "when is the last time I prayed for the gift of prophecy?" and my answer was never.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by steve » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:28 pm

A lot of the literature I've read on spiritual gifts in the past few months simply equates preaching with prophecy. I find this to be a cop out to some degree.
I agree. I remember, when the original "Living Bible" was published in the sixties and seventies (in installments), that Ken Taylor used "inspired preaching" to paraphrase "prophecy" in the 1 Corinthians passages (I recently looked in the Living Bible and found it had been changed, so my memory must apply to an earlier edition). It seemed like this was saying, if you have a good preacher in the pulpit, you have prophecy in your church. My views have always embraced a more "Pentecostal" or "charismatic" model of prophesying.
But your answer could feel like a cop-out too. In absence of obvious prophetic utterances we just call casual utterances by God's people prophecy.


Not intending to dodge the issue, but, when people were speaking in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, it seems that Peter, by quoting Joel, was calling that phenomenon "prophesying," which makes me wonder if "prophesying" may take different forms, so long as the utterance is inspired by the "Spirit" of prophecy. What charismatics call a "word of knowledge" was regarded as prophecy in John 4:18-19. I am wondering if, very time a person speaks anything by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, this might be regarded as a type of prophesying. I have never knowingly prophesied, and regard myself as a teacher, rather than a prophet. Sometimes, people have come to me after I taught and identified something in the content of my lecture as having been a "word from the Lord" to them. This is very subjective, of course, but the repeated occurrence of such comments over the years makes me wonder whether prophecies may often be unrecognized by the person speaking them, but recognized by hearers as such.

A.W. Tozer was often referred to as a "prophet." If he was, his prophesying was primarily seen in that his sermons captured so perfectly the burden of the Lord in his day. He also wrote some interesting things about "prophets" in the church today. He pointed out that biblical prophets said less about the future than they said about what God was thinking and doing in their day. In one of his writings, he said something like, "One-hundred years from now, the church historians will be able to say what God was doing in this present year of our Lord, but we need prophets who can tell us what He is doing now."

Though he was not Pentecostal (the modern charismatic movement had not begun in his lifetime), he believed in all the gifts of the Spirit for today. His view of prophecy seemed to be a little less of the "thus saith the Lord..." utterances than the Pentecostal view. However, on a taped sermon, he once diverted into a prophecy of a very "charismatic" type. He interrupted his preaching by saying something that sounded very like a prophetic prediction about the future of the evangelical churches (I wrote it down at the time, but can't find it at the moment. I will post it, if I locate it). Listening to the recording decades after his death, I was amazed at how true his prediction had been proven to be.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by mattrose » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:35 pm

You do tell that Tozer anecdote in the audio file. It was either in prophecy part 1 or 2.

Thanks for your feedback. I have been working hard on this series and it certainly isn't an easy subject to cover with precision.

User avatar
TK
Posts: 1477
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:42 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Steve's 'Charisma & Character' Series

Post by TK » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:45 am

However, since Caiaphas prophesied without realizing it, it may be fairly common for casual utterances by Spirit-filled people to be instances of inadvertent prophecy. I can't say for sure.
It has been my experience that when a brother or sister in the Lord says, or writes something "prophetic," I know it. You can just tell. But it is almost impossible to describe what I mean. You sort of have to "be there." I also believe an action can be prophetic, and have experienced this as well.

TK

Post Reply

Return to “Teachers, Authors, and Movements”