Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

nancyer

Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by nancyer » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:25 pm

After viewing the Harry Potter posts I thoughts I'd ask about the Left Behind series of books. Does anyone have an opinion about those? I've read all 12 and quite literally couldn't put them down. I was very upset when one ended with a cliff hanger and the library didn't have the next in the series!!!

A retired pastor who attends my church made a point of telling me they're just fiction, made up, non of it is real or true. I kept telling him I knew that, never claimed they were anything else. Just really well written story through all 12 books. Haven't read anything else by the authors, however.

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mattrose
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by mattrose » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:58 pm

I don't agree with the view of eschatology represented by the books/movies... But that doesn't mean the books themselves can't be entertaining. I read a good number of them (maybe 8?) as a teenager and must have enjoyed them if I read that many.

To be honest, I do find it a little bit disappointing, in retrospect, that they became so popular (especially now that Nic Cage is going to be in the updated movie) since it'll leave a lot of non-Christians thinking this is the ONLY view of end-times for Christians.

But when recognized as fiction, I don't see any issue.

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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:14 pm

When they came out, I had no real eschatology -- I guess by default, I was (without realizing there was any other view) a futurist. When I read the first few books, I was thrilled beyond measure. Finally, there was a book that was being popularized that gave a glimpse into the heart of real Christians who really want to serve God. I wanted everyone I knew to read them and even bought copies for folks. I thought it was really cool and even thought maybe I should buy a Hummer and be "ready" for the battle to begin. Eventually, though, I started losing interest in them as fiction well before I lost interest due to the increasing silliness as the Dispensational worldview unfolded. As to the fiction, it got really tiring to spend 1/3 of each book retelling the whole story. It really felt cheap and denigrated the glory of God as an attempt to suck money out of the popularization of it by stretching out the series. But, I guess seeing it unfold in fiction also showed me how ridiculous the literal view was. That was about the same time I found Steve Gregg's teaching on eschatology and for the first time had an alternative view to Revelation. That was pretty much the end for me and I never finished the books. I saw the first movie and thought -- again -- they sold out to make a quick buck and the production values alone were a poor testament to the glory of God (regardless of its doctrinal "truthiness.") Other than that, they were great.

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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Paidion » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:27 pm

I hold to what is called "historic premillenialism". That was the view of the first and second century church. Today this view is called "post tribulationism"

The view is that there will be a time of great tribulation in the future. It is unknown just how long that period will last, though I am inclined toward a period of 1260 days (approx 3½ years). See Rev.11:3, 12:6. The early church believed Christians would go through this period, or be martyred during it.

We also must admit that the "rapture chapter" is still in the Bible:
The apostle Paul wrote:But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:14-17 NKJV)
We should be aware that the Greek word "ἀπαντησισς" (apantāsis), translated as "meet" was used in the first century to describe leaving a conquering king's home city and rushing out to meet him as he was returning from battle, and then ushering him back to his home city. Similarly, those who are caught up together with the resurrected dead persons, will first "be changed" to be immortal, and will meet the returning Lord in the air, and will then return with Him to the earth where they will rule and reign with him during the period known as "the millenium", said in Revelation to be a thousand years (though it may not be exactly 1000 years).

There you have my thoughts on the matter. But I don't major on events predicted for the future, as people are rather bigoted on these matters, so much so, that many are willing to divide on prophetic issues. Actually, I don't care that much. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll gladly take whatever comes.
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Ryan07
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Ryan07 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:13 am

My favorite Christian actor, David A. R. White, is a dispensationalist. I still like the movies even though they are generally all based on pre-tribulation rapture which is something I totally disagree with. I got through two Left Behind book series before I discovered with relief I no longer had to believe in a pre-tribulational rapture.

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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:29 am

"The view is that there will be a time of great tribulation in the future. It is unknown just how long that period will last, though I am inclined toward a period of 1260 days (approx 3½ years). See Rev.11:3, 12:6. The early church believed Christians would go through this period, or be martyred during it."

Actually, that's a great description of the stronger flavors of preterism. I might steal this description for other conversations.




Though the books became very popular I think they accidentally caused the death of dispensationalism because of this great observation,

"But, I guess seeing it unfold in fiction also showed me how ridiculous the literal view was."

They might be good fiction. But, the lesson to be gained (and that seems to have been learned subsconsiously by a number of people) is that it is silly and could never be more than fiction.

Doug

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Ryan07
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Ryan07 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:40 pm

The death of dispensationalism? My only response to that is: do you get out much? no offense LoL

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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:03 pm

Ryan07 wrote:The death of dispensationalism? My only response to that is: do you get out much? no offense LoL
I get out enough to know that the dispensational world has lost all credibility in academia. In addition, the fact that the 40 year clock has run out on all of their benchmarks has caused the backbone of the predictions to evaporate. The only people who are still dispenasationalists in academia go to schools like DTS or Liberty, which are highly insulated from criticism or critical thinking. The pastors who teach it tend to be from highly controlled environments like Calvary Chapel. The people who are most energetic about it are constantly disappointed, and always will be. Their power is waning.

Doug

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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Paidion » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:51 pm

Doug, you wrote:"The view is that there will be a time of great tribulation in the future. It is unknown just how long that period will last, though I am inclined toward a period of 1260 days (approx 3½ years). See Rev.11:3, 12:6. The early church believed Christians would go through this period, or be martyred during it."

Actually, that's a great description of the stronger flavors of preterism. I might steal this description for other conversations.
Doug, it's not a description of ANY flavor of preterism. Second-century Christians, such as Irenæus(120-202 A.D.), were expecting the Great Tribulation with the Antichrist and his number 666 in THEIR future! 70 A.D. was long past. Here is a sample from Irenæus's book Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 28

1. Inasmuch, then, as in this world (αἰῶνι—"age") some persons betake themselves to the light, and by faith unite themselves with God, but others shun the light, and separate themselves from God, the Word of God comes preparing a fit habitation for both. For those indeed who are in the light, that they may derive enjoyment from it, and from the good things contained in it; but for those in darkness, that they may partake in its calamities. And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of
all good.

2. And for this reason the apostle says: “Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness.” For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly “be cast into the lake of fire:”2043 [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, “that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;” whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: “And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after
the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written
in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.” After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: “He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray.” Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: “And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it.” He says also: “And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,” that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.
Paidion

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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:21 pm

I think you should get to know preterism a little better. The premillennial sequence of events lines up quite nicely with preterism as long as the tribulation is associated with the Neronic persecution and the Roman war.

It seems to me that putting any weight on Irenaeus' writings is a problem. To start with he was an outspoken chiliast, which was condemned by the church as heresey in 381AD. Second he was known for whacky errors such as claiming that Christ was in his 50's when crucified. Finally, and most importantly in this context the passage you just quoted describes his fundamentally erroneous eschatology in which the world would only go 6000 years before the millennium. This obviously didn't happen so why, exactly, should we consider him an authoritative voice on eschatology. Presuming that he and other leaders of the early church had special knowledge about the teachings of the apostles, how could he be so wrong. Or, did he have no special knowledge other than scripture, in which case we are in a much better place to put it all together because of modern archaeology and study tools.

Doug

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