Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

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Paidion
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:31 am

I am indeed a premillenialist, of the stripe known as "historic premillenialism". But let's examine the "rapture passage" again in conjunction with a passage from the "resurrection chapter"— I Corinthians15:
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:13-18 ESV)
and
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Cor 15:51-53 ESV)
Notice both passages speak of the same event, the resurrection of the Christians who have died. And both speak of some Christians who are alive at the time of this resurrection. Those who have died will be raised imperishable, and those who are alive at the time will instantly be changed from a mortal state to an immortal state. I understand this to be what is called "The first resurrection"

As I understand it, those who are caught up to MEET the Lord in the air will return with him to the earth in his triumphant coming. I understand that the word translated as "meet" was used of persons leaving a king's city to welcome their triumphant king who was away to war, back into his city, and to return with him to that city.

As I see it, the millenium will follow, and those immortal persons will rule and reign with him here on earth. Mortals who live on the earth at that time will be long-lived, and many of them will become Christians. At the end of the millenium the second resurrection will take place, both of the non-Christian dead, and of those Christians who will have died during the millenium. It may even include those prior to Christ's return who have not lived their lives as overcomers.

I realize that some of what I have said is speculation. I have tried to put it all together in such a way as to make sense of it all. However, if I am totally wrong in my understanding of these passages, it won't bother me at all. In my opinion, beliefs about future events should not take priority in the Christian life.
Paidion

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dwilkins
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:43 am

Paidion wrote:
As I understand it, those who are caught up to MEET the Lord in the air will return with him to the earth in his triumphant coming. I understand that the word translated as "meet" was used of persons leaving a king's city to welcome their triumphant king who was away to war, back into his city, and to return with him to that city.

As I see it, the millenium will follow, and those immortal persons will rule and reign with him here on earth. Mortals who live on the earth at that time will be long-lived, and many of them will become Christians. At the end of the millenium the second resurrection will take place, both of the non-Christian dead, and of those Christians who will have died during the millenium. It may even include those prior to Christ's return who have not lived their lives as overcomers.

I realize that some of what I have said is speculation. I have tried to put it all together in such a way as to make sense of it all. However, if I am totally wrong in my understanding of these passages, it won't bother me at all. In my opinion, beliefs about future events should not take priority in the Christian life.
That's a good summary of the premillennial sequence of events. I'm focused on the believers who come to faith after the First Resurrection. There is a distinct break where those who were believers before the rapture participate in being transformed, etc., as a group, but those who come to faith afterwards live normal lives until a later judgment. They are definitely two separate groups of people, and there might have been a short time at one point between the rapture and the conversion of the first millennial saint. Does anyone think it's a problem if the millennial saints didn't experience certain things that the pre-rapture saints did (Wedding Feast in heaven, etc.)? Would they be considered second class saints?

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:28 pm

As I see it, it's not a matter of sociological class, but a matter of position. According to Paul, a wife has a different position from her husband. She is to willingly submit to him. That doesn't make her second class, or in some way inferior to her husband (though some interpret it that way). It's just that her position relative to him, and her function is different. Indeed, the differing position may be compared to the Son being in a different position from the Father. The Son was always willingly submissive to the Father. This doesn't mean that the Son is second class. Both Father and Son are equally divine.

When God raises the saints to immortal life in the resurrection, it will be a great privilege. The saints who have died are not second class compared to those who will attain immortality without dying. They will all be raised together. Those who become saints during the millenium will die, but are not second class. It's just that they will receive immortality in the second resurrection. At that time all will be judged according to what is written in the Book of Life:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

This suggests that the names of some of them will be found in the Book of Life.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:33 pm

The question is whether or not the millennial saints should be considered part of the church since they will miss the wedding and the rapture. If they miss out on such important things, are they really the same group of people?

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:06 pm

1 Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor 15:51-53 is indeed talking about the same event but it IS NOT divorced from the 1st Century audience in which these promises were emphatically applied to. Where in the CONTEXT is it talking to another people, place and time? Where?

God Bless!

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Paidion
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:48 pm

A better question might be, "Where in history did Christ appear?" It's written that when He comes EVERY EYE shall see Him, and that He will come in a way similar to the way in which they saw Him go. They saw Him go up into the air and clouds. This implies that when He comes, He will come down out of the air and clouds. And where in history did a large number of people disappear and reappear as immortals? If that had happened, surely someone would have written of it, especially if every eye saw Him, including those who pierced Him.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. (Rev 1:7)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dwilkins
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Paidion wrote:A better question might be, "Where in history did Christ appear?" It's written that when He comes EVERY EYE shall see Him, and that He will come in a way similar to the way in which they saw Him go. They saw Him go up into the air and clouds. This implies that when He comes, He will come down out of the air and clouds. And where in history did a large number of people disappear and reappear as immortals? If that had happened, surely someone would have written of it, especially if every eye saw Him, including those who pierced Him.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. (Rev 1:7)
If you're going to take that statement seriously then I expect you to take the one before it just as seriously,

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.


But, I was trying to find a way to keep the conversation somewhat on topic. Steve's take on it is that there is no such category as millennial saints. Really, what he's saying is that there is continuity between the church of the New Testament and the millennial saints because the Second Coming didn't interrupt the continuity of the saints. Though the terminology isn't used by Amillennialists the concept is correct. Amillennialists believe we are in the millennium, therefore we are the millennial saints. But the difficulty that the Amillennialists have is that the events of the first century were leading up to what we call the Second Coming (what they called the day of the Lord, or the coming of Christ). And, it was supposed to happen before the full consumation of the kingdom. They were told that these things must soon take place and that the time was near. I think that their view was very similar to the classical premillennial approach. Assuming that things happened according to the time statements they were given I'm curious about how much continuity there would be for believers living in the millennium.

Doug

dwilkins
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Re: Point of view on Left Behind, anyone?

Post by dwilkins » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:05 am

For anyone interested, I just released a Kindle book this morning on preterist time statements in the New Testament. I document more than 250 direct and indirect statements that the return of Christ was to be in the first century. If even one of them is correct, and we think there is no error in scripture, then the game is up.

http://www.amazon.com/Preterist-Time-St ... statements

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