Exodus 1-6 and Standing Up for What's Right

[Guest]

What, you mean the post at the beginning of this thread? And what kind of analogies? Modern-day examples of what Exodus 1-6 is talking about?

I'm just not positive I understand what you mean.

Damon

[Guest]

Ack! Gentile mentality strikes again!!

Just reiterating what the Bible proclaims.

Jesus could have very easily stood up for what was right, but He deliberately allowed Himself to be murdered for a greater purpose. What was that purpose? Go back to Isaiah 53 and look. It was because by allowing the pain and humiliation, He would "sprinkle many." Physically speaking, His death would serve as a catalyst to help others. Spiritually speaking, His death provided for forgiveness of sins for all.

Jesus' main concern is the eternal state. Our salvation. He's not interested in making us have fun, get rich, get healed, have the perfect relationship, etc. He's interested in removing the separater of God and man which is sin. If you are in a relationship were you are unhappy you can pray and trust in God who raises the dead. Then again, if you are one who seeks to save his life, then follow the world. Get a divorce start over and, hey, it may actually be better. Then again it may be worse. I don't know of a Biblical case where "separation" is spoken of. Adultery and the unbelieving spouse leaving you are the only two cases were separation is permitted.

Here's a question for you. Would staying in an abusive relationship provide a catalyst to help the abusive husband, the children, or others who may be involved? Or, would it be better to at least temporarily separate (1 Cor. 6:10-11)? Would that be best for all concerned?

The answer truly depends on the circumstances, and on the emotional fortitude of the wife in question. Never forget that we're called to love others AS ourselves. Not MORE than ourselves, and not LESS.

Yes,
1 Peter 3:1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.

It doesn't say "when you feel like it" or "when times are good". How can husbands be won over if the wives are leaving?

Rom 5:2 And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Did the apostles run from their mistreatments? They could have but they endured. The society we live in today teaches us to be happy at all costs and if your not getting what you want then that is intolerable.

"If you love those who love you what credit is that to you, even sinners do the same. If you do good to those who do good to you what credit is that to you, even sinners do the same. " (Luke 6:32-33)

The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers. (1 Cor 6:7-8)

You see, if you only love your spouse if your spouse treats you right, then you're no better than the spouse that treats you badly. As has been stated, many are quick to point out others' faults but slow to recognize and change thier own. Marriage is meant to be permanent and divorce was permitted due to the hardness of people's hearts.

If a marriage gets rough and so you "bail out," you make a statement that "till death do us part" is conditional.

The argument is always used in the most extreme case of physical abuse to try and convince that it's ok to divorce in this case. All I can say is it's up to the individual to make that call. Personally I would rather suffer now. Knowing just as with Job, God's hand is in everything that happends for our good.

What is it that you were quoting in 1 Cor 6:10?

Don't put the onus on the wife if she doesn't have tremendous emotional fortitude to endure what her abusive husband is dishing out.

Strength comes from God. If you're being beaten and are a POW in Iraq and they are going to behead you if you don't convert to Islam. what do you do? Give up your oath to God to save your mortal life? At what point do we give up our oath given in marriage? Or do we remind ourselves "for better or for worse till death.

YOU DON'T WALK IN HER SHOES, so don't try to pretend that you do. Unless you truly know what it's like, it's highly inappropriate for you to pass judgment on her.
Damon

The standard emotional response.

I quoted scripture and you get offended, interesting. The word of God stands forever.

When did I pass judgement on her???? I was responding to your statement.

Nothing can be worth being verbally (or even physically) abused and humiliated.

This is clearly unbiblical. We are called to suffer even as Christ did.
I am responding to you Damon, not the other poster!

[_Steve]

Sean,
Thank you for taking the unpopular (but biblical stand). I agree with you and was planning to write some of the same points, but you beat me to it. I get so tired of being told that we are not supposed to be "doormats." Where is that in scripture, and what does it mean? Does it mean that we are not supposed to let people trample upon us and leave their dirt all over us? That sounds exactly like what Jesus did for us—not only because of His special mission, as Damon suggested, but, as it says in the verse you quoted—He did this "leaving us an example, that we should follow in His steps."

I might add that I think there is some truth in Damon's comment that we need to be careful about judging wives who are badly abused and find their faith too weak to stay and take the abuse. Perhaps they should be stronger, as should we all, but "in many things we all stumble." Sometimes distance may save a life...and the wife saving her own life, or that of the children, may be the loving thing for her to do to her husband also—keeping him out of prison or worse. However, I see no evidence that what most people are willing to call "abuse" is grounds for actual divorce.

While expressing concern about passing judgment, however, I think Damon is too quickly judging the husband (a man unknown to us) as being some kind of abuser. He might or might not be such for all any of us know. Wives sometimes speak of "abuse" when there is merely the common problem of male insensitivity, coldness, argumentativeness or some other defect that does not fall into the category of cruelty, as does abuse. The husband may merely be clueless—or he might be completely innocent of all that he is accused of!

The sister did not even say that her husband was "abusive." She mentioned "insults, belittling and acts of unkindness"—which are certainly inappropriate behaviors for a husband, if true, but if we are going to include every insult or unkind act under the heading of "abuse," then we certainly can no longer use that term in any discussion of whether a woman has reason to leave a marriage. It is far too vague.

There is a need for perseverance on the part of the believer—not only the endurance of insults and unkind acts, but also of torture and martyrdom. I realize that few American Christians believe such things anymore—which only shows how few American Christans have ever counted the cost of discipleship. Jesus still is the one who defines what Christianity is, no matter how many modern Americans seek to vote against His views.

I know of a case, close to me, where the wife accused her husband, a meek man in public ministry, of being very different in public than he was in private. She accused him of "emotional abuse" and "controlling behavior" (whatever that means). This gossip from the wife greatly damaged the man's reputation and ministry. It was later discovered, from the impartial testimony of their adult children, and by the subsequent behavior of the wife, that the husband was the innocent victim of slander, and the wife had simply gone a bit crazy.

A forum like this is not set-up for participants to gossip about spouses, or to leap to judgmental conclusions about others who have not had a chance to speak for themselves. "Does our law judge a man before it hears him?" (John 7:51).

It is an extremely irresponsible thing for anyone to suggest to a woman that she might need to leave her husband (and to begin private correspondence with another man!), when we know nothing about the husband's guilt or innocence! I strongly admonish our participants not to strike up private correspondence with married people of the opposite sex—especially when the latter are in marriages under stress! If I find this kind of inappropriateness again on this forum, I will be forced to delete all the posts by the offender.

[Guest]

Steve, be careful. You're right in pointing out that I only know one side of the story, but remember what I've said before. I come from a background of being able to see things from different perspectives. Don't make the assumption that I can't see things from this husband's perspective. For instance, I know a lady who divorced her husband because he was verbally and physically abusive, and I stand by her decision. But what she couldn't see was that she wasn't being emotionally sensitive to him. Instead of handling it the right way, he became abusive, but the fault didn't lie with just the husband or with just the wife. They both contributed to the divorce.

I've already realized that the wife may not be entirely without blame here. However, the larger share of the blame most likely lies at the feet of the husband.

Now, I don't always speak or act with wisdom, but the reason I suggested that this lady contact me privately was to be able to vent her feelings "safely." She obviously didn't feel safe on this forum. Right? But also, I intended to suggest that she seek marriage counseling. I never said anything about divorcing her husband, either. Read the verse I quoted! I mentioned temporarily separating from her husband as a possible short-term solution. My idea was to use this temporary separation as leverage to get her husband to agree to marriage counseling, if necessary.

Again, be very careful of judging me, too.

Damon

[Guest]

Ack! Gentile mentality strikes again!!

Just reiterating what the Bible proclaims.

Yes, but without wisdom.

Jesus main concern is the eternal state. Our salvation. He's not interested in making us have fun, get rich, get healed, have the perfect relationship, etc. He's interested in removing the seperater of God and man which is sin. If you are in a relationship were you are unhappy you can pray and trust in God who raises the dead. Then again, if you are one who seeks to save his life then follow the world. Get a divorce start over and hey, it may actually be better. Then again it may be worse. I don't know of a Biblical case where "seperation" is spoken of. Adultery and the unbelieving spouse leaving you are the only two cases were seperation is permitted.

Then look at 1 Corinthians 7:10-11. I quoted this passage before, but I got the chapter wrong.

1 Peter 3:1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.

It doesn't say "when you feel like it" or "when times are good". How can husbands be won over if the wives are leaving?

Then why did Paul make the caveat in 1 Cor. 7:11, "but if the wife departs (from her husband)..."? Answer me that first.

You see, if you only love your spouse if your spouse treats you right then your no better than the spouse that treats you badly. As has been stated, many are quick to point out others faults but slow to recognize and change thier own. Marriage is meant to be permenant and divorce was permitted due to the hardness of peoples hearts.

Yes, divorce was permitted because of the hardness of people's hearts, but WHY!???

You never got why, did you?

Using this case as an example, if this lady's husband's heart is so hard that she can't endure the marriage because she doesn't have the emotional fortitude, then she'd be forced to get divorced, no matter how much she might love her husband. THAT'S WHY DIVORCE WAS PERMITTED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. But that permission never fixed the root of the problem. It never addressed the "hardness of heart" that caused the breakup in the first place! That's why Jesus came.

Don't put the onus on the wife if she doesn't have tremendous emotional fortitude to endure what her abusive husband is dishing out.

Strength comes from God. If your being beaten and are a POW in Iraq and they are going to behead you if you don't convert to Islam. what do you do? Give up your oath to God to save your mortal life? At what point do we give up our oath given in marriage? Or do we remind ourselves "for better or for worse till death.

And are you going to hold it against someone if they just don't have it in them to do that!???

That's what I meant about not being able to walk in someone else's shoes. YOU might have that kind of inner strength, but not everyone does, no matter how much they might pray for it. I should know. I've personally seen a lady repeatedly pray for inner strength, only to be forced to finally separate from her husband because she couldn't take his verbal and physical abuse any more after ten years of marriage. I knew the husband personally very well, and he was intellectually brilliant but emotionally self-involved and needy.

YOU DON'T WALK IN HER SHOES, so don't try to pretend that you do. Unless you truly know what it's like, it's highly inappropriate for you to pass judgment on her.

The standard emotional response.

And that's the standard defense against walking in someone else's shoes. And by the way, I'm not an emotional kind of guy. I reason things out very logically, as you can plainly see if you read my other posts on this forum.

I quoted scripture and you get offended, interesting. The word of God stands forever.

Yes, you quoted scripture without wisdom. But why not try talking to a (Christian) marriage counselor and find out if what I'm saying is true? Don't just take my word for it.

When did I pass judgement on her???? I was responding to your statement.

By making the implicit assumption that this lady would have to be intolerant, unloving, or not willing to pray for inner strength from God if she were to separate from her husband.

Damon

[_Steve]

Damon,
The fact that you say, "the larger share of the blame most likely lies at the feet of the husband" tells me that you are one to jump to conclusions far too rapidly—a dangerous tendency for anyone who would counsel unhappy spouses. Remember, that "the first one to plead his cause seems right, until his neighbor comes and examines him" (Prov.18:17). I am not saying that this woman is the one most at fault in her marriage, but you know absolutely nothing about this woman or her husband. How can you claim to know where "most of the blame most likely lies"? Such groundless prejudice betrays a lack of qualification to counsel relationship problems.

To suggest that a woman leave her husband in order to pressure him into doing what you (an entirely ignorant and meddlesome outsider) think he should do (i.e., get marriage counseling) is to court disaster. You gave this counsel without the sister having given any information whatsoever about her husband that would justify this. The man may indeed need counseling, but you don't know whether this is the case or not, and advising a woman concerning ways to manipulate or control the head of her home against his will is inappropriate in the extreme.

I suppose you are probably young, and have had little experience in ministry and little grasp of ministerial ethics. I am an old man who has made many similar mistakes in my youth. I assure you, you are out of line in this. I don't doubt that you mean well, but if you do not learn this lesson, you may inadvertantly find yourself earning a millstone necklace (Matt.18:6).

Your approval of another woman's decision to divorce her husband, whom you judged to be "verbally and physically abusive," causes me great concern about your moral judgment. Is this in accord with what the Lord Jesus teaches His disciples (Matt.5:32/ 19:9)? Those who would be teachers must anticipate the stricter judgment (James 3:1), and those who counsel contrary to God's laws will (at the very best) be regarded as the least in the kingdom of God (Matt.5:19).

"He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame to him" (Prov.18:13). Your confidence in your ability to determine whether a man has or has not been abusive to his wife (Did you witness this with your own eyes? Were there two or more witnesses? How are you defining "abuse"?), and your willingness to make such judgments without even hearing his side (as in the present case) disqualify you to counsel people in marriage crisis. Modern marriages are brittle enough these days without meddlesome do-gooders, who know nothing about the real situation, taking sides with the disgruntled partner. I know of many marriages that might well have survived, had not the marriage counselors destroyed them with their humanistic advice.

When you say, "they both contributed to the divorce," you make the common error of thinking that divorce must inevitably be the cure for perennial and incurable unhappiness in marriage. It may be true that both spouses contributed to the unpleasantness or the unhappiness of the marriage, but only one person contributes to the divorce—either the party that commits adultery, or the party that obtains a divorce against a non-adulterous spouse.

Let us not perpetuate in the church the cultural myth that unhappiness and even great affliction are never to be endured in marriage by the faithful Christian. My own wife abused me verbally and emotionally for a very long time, and it never crossed my mind to consider divorce. I assumed that, since I had made vows before God of lifelong fidelity, it was incumbent upon me to keep my vows, since "God has no pleasure in fools" (Eccl.5:4). Should I have separated from my wife, in your judgment? If so, how could I have obeyed the command to "dwell with them according to knowledge" (1 Peter 3:7)? In her diminished mental state, I knew that this would simply be casting her out of the protection of our home to the wolves (who have since devoured her), and would be running out on my responsibility to "nourish and cherish" her. These duties do not only accrue to the husband when he has a wife who behaves tolerably.

If this woman were to follow your suggestion of separation for the purpose of seizing control of her marriage and forcing her husband into submission to her agenda (that is, of course, what you were suggesting), how would you advise her, at the same time, to continue fulfilling the biblical mandate to wives (and husbands) to "not deprive one another, but by consent" (1 Cor.7:5)? If her husband did not consent to a separation, then she would be in violation of the biblical instruction to wives in depriving him of regular access to her. If you urge her to go against her husband's wishes in this, then you are inserting yourself between him and her, and usurping his position of headship for yourself! On the other hand, if he did consent to a temporary separation as a therapeudic for the marriage woes, then I am sure he would be able to think of this expedient himself, without other men advising his wife along these lines.

Marriage counselors have nothing invested in the marriages that they so cavalierly experiment on with their theories of what "might help." It never seems to occur to some of them that the husband and wife (and children, grandparents, and many others) have a great deal at stake in the happiness of the marriage, and have often invested a great deal of time, emotional energy, labor, money, prayer and more in seeking to make their marriages what they desire them to be—only to have some rookie, self-appointed counselor, like a bull in a china shop, come along and wreak destruction through his/her ill-conceived counsel, donning an air of pretended authority.

If it seems that you have touched a nerve of mine, you clearly have. I desperately sought to save my 20-year marriage from the devastation being caused by my poor wife's mental and spiritual deterioration over several years. I was praying desperately, taking her to marriage counseling, ministering to her every perceived need—and seeing some encouraging signs of improvement.

Finally, some immature Christian counselors took her aside, knowing nothing of the prayers and tears we had invested, and the years of work we had done in attempting to fix things, and, upon my wife's confused testimony alone, they counseled her to leave the marriage "for the sake of reconciliation."

I protested this counsel, when I learned of it, but they wouldn't hear anything from me. They had made up their minds that "the larger share of the blame most likely lies at the feet of the husband." They knew nothing of the sacrifices I was making daily to salvage my wife's soul (which, sadly, is now lost). I knew her well enough to know that, if she once left the home with "permission" from counselors, she would never be back. She would lose her marriage, her children, her home, her reputation, her integrity, and her virtue.

The "counselors" knew nothing about their counselee, about me, or about the true state of affairs in our marriage, and were simply self-styled, one-size-fits-all-type marriage experts. I have since forgiven them for the devastation their wicked counsel caused to my family, because they were ignorant and immature Christians who clearly did not know the scriptures, nor think deeply about marital issues. However, I do still see red whenever I observe the same thing being attempted against another struggling couple.

My case is in no sense unusual. I personally know six or seven other Christian marriages destroyed in essentially the same way, within a few months of my own. This problem is an epidemic in the American church, and you would be well advised to avoid spreading it further. It is the devil's agenda to destroy Christian families, and only fools will rush into the fray without making very great and judicious efforts to ascertain exactly what the devil is doing in a specific case, so as not to become his clueless pawn in the situation. Submission to the teachings of scripture, rather than to intuition and sentiment, will go a long way toward bringing a remedy to this plague in the body of Christ.

It is clear that Paul wanted male ministers to counsel the men and the older women, but to leave the counseling of younger women to the older women to do (Titus 2:1-5). It is also clear, from the same passage, that this counsel to young women, to be given by the older women, was to include instructions about how to keep at home and love their husbands. How is it that discontented wives so often find sympathetic men's shoulders to cry on? Paul knew better.

I don't mean to be harsh with you. I am concerned about well-meaning, but clumsy and unbiblical attempts, by those who appoint themselves to counsel troubled marriages, to pronounce verdicts without even hearing the evidence and to simply trust their intuitions or the testimony of the first person who complains about his/her spouse's imperfections.

I don't doubt your good intentions, but those who post here need to know that I am a strong defender of the permanence and biblical model of marriage, and as moderator of the forum, I can not allow any activity here that I feel endangers the stability of already shakey marriages. You now know what I think about this. I allow much expression of difference of opinion here, but I am asking all of our participants to refrain from complaining about their spouses here and from taking up a reproach against a brother (or sister) who is not present to defend himself/herself. I would suggest that such policies be maintained, not only here, but in all Christian communications.

[Guest]

I apologize to you Steve I was out of line and quite tempted.
I did talk to an older woman and she advised me through scriptures
and I am o.k. I was out of line and I assure you it wont happen again.
My apologies to you, Damon, as well as a brother who was only concerned.