The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ

[Guest]

In your system, how are we pardoned of sins we commit after "we have started down the road to complete righteousness"? On what basis? And is it necessary for us to do anything or are they automatically forgiven?

I trust that the things I have written are scriptural truth, and not merely
"my system".

In any case, my understanding is that if we "deliberately sin", then "there is no more sacrifice for sin" but a "terrifying expectation of judgment" and a "fury of fire which will consume the adversaries". It appears that a severe correction will be necessary, perhaps both in this life and in the next. However, if we repent now, and accept correction now, then future correction will be unnecessary. But if we persist in deliberate sin, we will be "cast into outer darkness".

If we sin unwittingly, God will reveal this to us, so that we will be able to avoid such in the future. It may be that "a light beating" will be necessary, that is a certain amount of correction.

[Guest]

Paidion,

I'm confused.

In any case, my understanding is that if we "deliberately sin", then "there is no more sacrifice for sin"

I have understood your position to be that there is no sacrifice needed to obtain pardon of sins.

If we sin unwittingly, God will reveal this to us, so that we will be able to avoid such in the future.

Where do you find support in scriptures for this idea? In Psalm 19:12 David cries out "Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults." (NASB) We all "stumble in many ways", and, all too often, are ignorant of what we have done and will never recognize it.

I have sinned for many years in some ways without realizing it. One definition of gossip is "to speak about someone in a way that causes, or might cause, the person spoken to, to have lower opinion of the person spoken about." I believe that to be a good definition. Who can say they have never unnecessarily done this? And done it unthinkingly, not realizing they have sinned, forgetting what they have done! I could go on; there are many ways we sin in ignorance.

In Numbers 15 we read of unintentional sins. When the person realizes what he has done he was required to sacrifice a female goat to atone for his sin. It should be noted that this was required by God. Then for an intentional sin there was no sacrifice, no forgiveness.

What is different today? If we persist in willful sin there is no forgiveness. But on what basis are our sins of ignorance forgiven? Our sacrifice has already been offered! Praise God! Jesus died for our sins!

From Romans 3 & 4: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth to be a propitiation by his blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in his forebearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,.....Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from deeds of the law....For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin."

What do we learn from this? I see the following:

1. We are all sinners and justification is through faith in Messiah and His propitiatory sacrifice.

2. Although the passage might seem to imply that by works salvation is owed as a debt, Paul makes clear elsewhere that if this is so "then Christ died in vain." (Gal 3:21)

3. The righteousness we have that justifies is "reckoned" to us, that is, imputed to us in a substutionary manner. We are not the source of it, Christ is. Logizomai, translated "reckoned" or "accounted" is an accounting term meaning something someone else deposits in our account.

4. Our sins are "covered" by Christ's sacrifice and thus not counted (Logizomai) against us.

Please do not misunderstand me. I in no way believe that our justification is severed from our sanctification. I see our sanctification as being evidentiary regarding our being "in Christ". "Apart from me you can do nothing". I deny "easy believism"; Jesus is both Lord and Savior or He is neither.

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

I appreciate your sincerity in trying to determine the truth about salvation and forgiveness. I will attempt to answer your questions and quote the relevant scripture in a future post.

But I would like you to answer your question from your own position. As a teenager, when I held to the idea of "propitiating an angry God so that you could be forgiven" by the "vicarious atonement" of Christ, I believed that when I sinned, I could be forgiven and have my sin covered by the blood of Christ. Because I had "accepted Christ's provision" and was trusting in His blood for forgiveness, past, present, and future, I didn't really have to worry about continuing in sin, for all I had to do was ask forgiveness, and it would be all cleaned up. This was an act that was repeated over and over. A bit like the practice of some Catholics who go to confession every Sunday to get the sins of the previous week forgiven. For me, the victory was never there. But that was okay, since I was born again and couldn't become unborn, I would go to heaven anyway.

I don't think the above is your position, but I'm as confused as to what your position actually is, as you are of mine.

I'll ask about just one little detail for now. You wrote:

"Then for an intentional sin there was no sacrifice, no forgiveness."

I wondered where you got this idea. Wasn't David's sin with Bathsheba and subsequent murder of her husband intentional. And didn't he find the forgiveness and deliverance he sought when he prayed (or sang) Psalm 51?

Please expand on your own position, and I'll try to clarify mine.

[Guest]

Paidion,

I realize now I was a bit careless when I used the word "intentional". I had in mind the passage in Numbers 15:30-36. My NKJV uses "intentional" in the heading above this section and I carelessly used it. In the text the NKJV uses "presumptious" which I understand to mean "defiantly".

Certainly David's sins were intentional but I believe he did them out of weakness rather than defiantly.

You are correct; I do not hold the position you held in your youth and neither do I hold the perserverance view of the Calvinists or the eternal security position generally held by Baptists. I'll explain further another day.

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

Paidion,

I would like to continue this discussion with you; I hope I will now have some time for it. It is a subject that requires much thought, and I type slowly so I must be economical with my words.

I have recently reread or skimmed over all you posted on this subject and also read your "testimony" on another thread. Before I post more, I would request clarification of a couple points:

1. You appear to deny the concept of imputed righteousness. Is that your position?

2. On judgement day, will we attain etermal life (go to heaven, be saved) based on merit or will it be by grace?

Thanks and God bless, Homer

[Guest]

Hi Homer,
I will be glad to discuss further with you.

1. You appear to deny the concept of imputed righteousness. Is that your position?

If I understand the concept correctly, that is, if it means that Christ's righteousness is impinged upon us in such a way that when God looks upon us, He is blinded to our sin, but sees only Christ's righteousness ---- if it means that our righteousness is merely postional and not actual, then my answer is "Yes, I deny the concept of imputed righteousness."

However, if the phrase "imputed righteousness" is used in the words of Paul: "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him toward (not "as") righteousness," then my answer is, "I believe in this statement."
Abraham's faith was a first step toward a life of righteousness. So his faith counted. More than that, although Jesus death makes available enabling grace to live righteously, this does not happen automatically. We must co-operate with this grace. We do this by faith.

2. On judgement day, will we attain etermal life (go to heaven, be saved) based on merit or will it be by grace?]

Yes!

It's not an either-or question. It is by the enabling grace of Christ that we become righteous. Paul and Peter both stated that we will be judged according to our works. If the works had no merit, this could not be the case. But it's not by self-effort, "lest anyone should boast." It is the enabling grace of Christ that makes it possible.

It is not a matter of quantity or quality of good works and avoidance of bad. It is a matter of being willing to follow Christ, obey what He said on the Sermon on the mount, and go in the direction of being conformed to the image of Christ. If we are on that road, Christ will put the finishing touches on our completion as Christians when He comes, and we will share in the first resurrection.

If not, we will be in the second resurrection. The book of Revelation seems to imply that some whose names are in the book of life will be in the second resurrection rather than the first. I don't know who they will be except they will not be "overcomers" as those who are in the first.

[Guest]

Paidion,

It is late; I will reply to you regarding Paul's discussion of imputed righteousness more fully soon (Lord willing). I can see we need a full discussion of the relevant passages.

You said:

if it means that our righteousness is merely postional and not actual, then my answer is "Yes, I deny the concept of imputed righteousness."

How about positional (absolute) and actual (relative) righteousness?

And you said:

if the phrase "imputed righteousness" is used in the words of Paul: "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him toward (not "as") righteousness," then my answer is, "I believe in this statement."

How does one become accounted "toward" being righteous? What would that mean?

In Romans 4:3 I realize the Greek word can mean "toward" but it does not fit the context; it would fit if it means "into", that is, Abraham's faith was placed "into" Abraham's account as righteousness. I am sure you know logizomai was a verb commonly used to set down accounts. In this case Abraham's faith was set down on the credit side of the ledger as righteousness. Paul's whole argument, note vs. 4-5, is about whether that which is in a person's account is earned or credited as a gift. Surely you will not say our sins, in passages that inform us they are not imputed against us (same Greek word) are only moved somewhat away from us?

As far as Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6, referred to by Paul, we have nothing in scripture that informs us there was any deficiency in this faith; it would appear to be the exact same faith that enabled him to be willing to sacrifice Isaac.

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

How does one become accounted "toward" being righteous? What would that mean?

I think I have already explained in my previous post what it means for one's faith to be counted toward righteousness. If there is something about this explanation that was unclear to you, please identify it.

In Romans 4:3 I realize the Greek word can mean "toward" but it does not fit the context; it would fit if it means "into", that is, Abraham's faith was placed "into" Abraham's account as righteousness. I am sure you know logizomai was a verb commonly used to set down accounts. In this case Abraham's faith was set down on the credit side of the ledger as righteousness. Paul's whole argument, note vs. 4-5, is about whether that which is in a person's account is earned or credited as a gift. Surely you will not say our sins, in passages that inform us they are not imputed against us (same Greek word) are only moved somewhat away from us?

I agree that logizomai was initially used in accounting. But as you know, the original meaning of many words in various languages change slightly over time, and take on somewhat different meanings. I invite you to study the following exhaustive list of New Testament verses which contain the verb logizomai. This is the ESV translation, and the words or phrases translated from logizomai are bolded. I think it can be seen that in many cases, the idea has no relation to keeping an account in a ledger.

Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.”

John 11:50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”

Acts 19:27 And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship.”

Romans 2:3 Do you suppose, O man––you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself––that you will escape the judgment of God?

Romans 2:26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Romans 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Romans 4:9 ¶ Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Romans 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

Romans 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Romans 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:23 ¶ But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,

Romans 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Romans 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

Romans 8:36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

Romans 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Romans 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

1 Corinthians 4:1 ¶ This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 13:5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 10:2 I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh.

2 Corinthians 10:7 ¶ Look at what is before your eyes. If anyone is confident that he is Christ’s, let him remind himself that just as he is Christ’s, so also are we.

2 Corinthians 10:11 Let such a person understand that what we say by letter when absent, we do when present.

2 Corinthians 11:5 ¶ I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super–apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:6 Though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.

Galatians 3:6 ¶ just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Philippians 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

2 Timothy 4:16 ¶ At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!

Hebrews 11:19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”––and he was called a friend of God.

1 Peter 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it.

Notice that in the James passage, James quotes that Abraham's belief or faith was counted to him toward (or "into") righteousness in the context that Abraham, and all other people are justified by works and not by faith alone.

James made it clear that faith was just the first step into righteousness, and so that alone was not enough for justification (or "righteousification"),
but that faith had to be completed by works in order to be valid. Thus faith is counted "toward" or "into" righteousness, but never "instead of" righteousness, as those promoting the substitutionary atonement would have us believe. If "instead of" were meant, then the Greek preposition "anti" would have been used instead of "eis."

[Guest]

Paidion,

How does one become accounted "toward" being righteous? What would that mean?


I think I have already explained in my previous post what it means for one's faith to be counted toward righteousness. If there is something about this explanation that was unclear to you, please identify it.

What I would like to know is this: Do you believe Abraham was considered righteous and a justified man at the point in time when he believed God in Genesis 15:6? Your statement here would certainly appear to deny this:

James made it clear that faith was just the first step into righteousness, and so that alone was not enough for justification (or "righteousification"),
but that faith had to be completed by works in order to be valid.

Abraham, on your account, was unjustified for many years between Gen 15. and Gen. 22. Paul seems to have missed this!

I would ask you at the point Abraham believed God in Gen 15:6, just what "work" was he supposed to do other than believe God?

You are correct that the word logizomai has a range of meaning. That proves nothing. The point is, what does the word mean in the context of Romans 4:1-5:

v.2 If Abraham was justified by works, he could boast.

v.3 Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

v.4 To the person who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

v.5 But to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as righteousness

v.6 ...David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."

I fail to see how "toward" makes any sense here, rather, it makes nonsense.

Your reference of James' discussion is appropriate. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was indeed a test. Not a test of works, but probably the greatest test of faith in the bible. And it was the exact same faith Abraham had in Genesis 15:6. His actions with Isaac were an act of faith, a demonstration of faith. His "work" had the meaning of faith.

[Guest]

I submit that "dikaioo" also has a variety of meanings, of which "justify" in the sense that you seem to be using it, is only one. It also means "to make righteous", and this is the sense I think it is being used in the passage under consideration. It takes time to be made righteous --- a life time, and then some. As I said, our Lord, when He comes will put on the finishing touches, and then his overcoming disciples will be perfected. Faith is the first step, but not only the first step, but every step in the process. For it is the essence of the disciple's co-operation with the enabling grace of God (See Titus 2). So it is always "toward righteousness", with righteosness as the goal, that faith is effectual, or, if you prefer, "into righteousness." Perhaps that would be a more accurate translation, since the Greek word"eis" (into) is often used to indicate that its direct object represents the goal.

And now, I have said all I have to say on this subject.