Trinity.

[BrotherAlan]

Okay, since that other thread on, "Did God die on the Cross?", led, eventually (and not surprisingly) to questions/comments about the Trinity-- not surprising because the question of the Trinity is, really, the fundamental question with respect to developing a distinctively Christian theology-- I thought I would hop in on this old thread on the Trinity (which I was not a part of originally).

Now, I did not have a chance to read through this entire very long thread-- but I read some of it. Some interesting stuff there...but, nowhere did I see the most fundamental question/issue raised concerning the doctrine on the Trinity, namely, "Is there procession and generation within God?" THIS, really, is the most foundational question that needs to be addressed when addressing the doctrine on the Trinity, for the answer to this question determines how (and, perhaps, even whether) we can go anywhere in developing a doctrine on the Trinity (for, if there is true generation in God, then there is also true paternity and sonship within God...and this, of course, would form a basis for developing the doctrine on the Trinity).

So, I will simply ask these fundamental question(s): "Is there procession in God? And, if so, is there any procession in God that can be called 'generation'?"

Note these important definitions (in this context about talking about God) for this discussion:
1. Procession: "An immanent act (within God) which terminates in something distinct from its origin."
2. Generation: "The procession of a living being from a co-joined living principle of the same nature."


That there is indeed procession (and the specific procession of generation) in God is at least indicated-- or, according to many theologians, directly revealed-- in the following passages from the Sacred Scriptures:

"From God I (Christ) proceeded." (John 8:42)

"We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only-begotten of the Father." (John 1:14; see also John 1:18, 3:16, etc.)

"I will tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I have begotten you." (Psalms 2:7; as both the context of this Psalm, as well as the following Scriptures make clear, this verse is clearly a prophecy of Jesus Christ).

"We bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.'" (Acts. 13:32-33)

"For to what angel did God ever say, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee'? Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to be a son'?" (Hebrews 1:5)

"So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, 'Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee'." (Heb. 5:5)

These are just a few of the verses that at the very least, "indicate" to us that there "just might be" something "going on here" with all this talk of "procession", and "begetting", and "generation" within God (and note the prominence that Ps. 2:7, which declares that God begets a Son, has in the Apostolic teaching; indication of how important that verse was for the Apostles) These verses should prompt us to ask ourselves the honest and serious question: Could there actually be true generation in God...and, if so, what would that tell us about God??? Something I think we really need to think and pray about!

In Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God,
BrotherAlan

[Homer]

Consider this:

Romans 10:8-13

8. But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12. For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13. for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

First, let me say that I believe myself to be Trinitarian. I think it is good to discuss these things but it can become something of a sport. Does a person have to be Trinitarian in the classic sense to be with our Lord when we die? Perhaps Paul oversimplified things in the above statement, but I do not think on judgment day we will be asked to explain the trinity, especially on a "go, no go" basis concerning heaven. Sometimes we heap loads on people's shoulders they are unable to bear. Our Lord said something about that and it was not a compliment.

Paul is emphatic in what must be believed and saves a person. Confessing him as Lord necessarily implies obedience. No membership in some earthly institution required. All who call on His name, in the biblical sense, are part of His ekklesia., the body of Christ.

Vern, a man who once worked for me sharing the same office, was an Arian. Before becoming a Christian, Vern was something of a brawler, a troublemaker. He picked quarrels with people. When he became a follower of Jesus everything changed. On occasion someone at work would treat Vern badly. If I mentioned it to him he would always respond by saying something good about the person picking on him. I used to think "I can't be as good as Jesus, but God let me at least be as good as Vern". I fully expect to meet Vern in heaven some day.

[dwight92070]

To Brenden, my apprehension of the Trinity has been an ever increasing eye-opener. The latest revelation was while reading John 17. Notice the DEEP LOVE, RESPECT AND HONOR that the Son has for the Father! Their is obviously sweet communion between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Is this not a MODEL, to some degree, of how we should LOVE ONE ANOTHER? Also, I researched how many times in the New Testament that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were mentioned AT THE SAME TIME. I was amazed to find 111 times! I have a list of every reference if you are interested. That alone tells me that there is a STRONG and CLOSE association between the 3 persons in the Godhead, although it is, of course, still a mystery.

[TheEditor]

Hi Dwight,

Sure, feel free to give me that list. I am always open to perspectives I haven't considered.

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

Could there actually be true generation in God...and, if so, what would that tell us about God??? Something I think we really need to think and pray about!

Being very very familiar with Mormonism: if we believed God actually generated offspring, then we should have no argument with Mormons over the nature of God. Mormons do ask us to pray about it, and I did, and the answer was:
‘See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life’ (Deuteronomy 32:39) ‘You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me’ (Isaiah 43:10-11) ‘Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. 9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me’ (Isaiah 46:9)

There is no other God than God, and anything from God is God. Any part of God is God. And all other things that exist other than God are not God:
‘For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath’ (Hosea 11:9) ‘For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed’ (Malachi 3:6) ‘Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you. I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people’ (Leviticus 26:12) (When we realize Jesus is the one who speaking above, I believe this changes our perception and understanding of God, and of Jesus. Believe it or not, it does make a difference)

“I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people’ (2Cor.6:16)
‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father’ (John 1:14) ‘He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth’ (Col.1:15-16)
‘Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them’ (Rev 21:3)
The body of Christ is made of flesh and atoms. God has indwelt a tent, a tabernacle, a Temple, a body of flesh, and now the people of God, and they in Him. But the tent was not God, neither was the Temple, nor the flesh, nor are we God. God indwells these vessels, but they were not God, and never will be Gods (unless you are a Mormon). I understand incarnate to mean: God indwelt His creation. Jesus may also have created for Himself a human spirit, and blended His created human spirit with His own Spirit, but we don’t know for sure because nothing says this explicitly (albeit I am sure this is in our catechism). I don’t think you believe, like some do, that the human spirit is eternal. Alan, since you are defending the Trinity, I am not sure if I know where you were going with your question, I only wrote this as an exercise to accumulate some scriptures on the subject. But either way, that is my answer.

[jriccitelli]

'But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved… ' (Romans 10:8-9, above)

Well, the first believers were mostly Jews (as was Paul) and no Jews would call or associate anyone but God with the name Lord in this context. So ‘Jesus is lord’; would have to be a proclamation of understanding that ‘Jesus is God’, otherwise for a Jew, this would be blasphemy of the true God.
The following two sentences from Romans 10 above are related directly to The God of Israel:
‘… For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved’ (Romans 10:12-13)
And by 'calling' on the 'name' of the 'Lord', is a direct reference to calling upon the name of God in scripture.

I think it is good to discuss these things but it can become something of a sport. Does a person have to be Trinitarian in the classic sense to be with our Lord when we die? (Homer)

As a bible teacher, and believer, I notice there is a biblical command to study, know, and know what we believe. So, even though I know Christians who have a hard time explaining the Deity of Christ, let alone much of ‘anything’ from the Bible, I don’t worry about their salvation ‘too’ much, unless ‘they go out of their way to argue against Jesus being God’. I have learned from experience that this means they either don’t understand or don’t ‘believe’ some serious precepts in Gods Word. Which either one it is, its when they ‘refuse’ to believe some of the precepts of Gods word and of Gods nature, it opens the door to all kinds of weird misconceptions of God. For one: God producing literal offspring, God being a man, creatures that are God, God being one of many, etc. etc.

If believing that Jesus is God, isn’t what saves us, understanding ‘the precepts’ that demand it to be true, truly may save a person. And at least keep one from falling into a lot of other theological errors, and misconceptions about God. The Deity of Christ opens our mind to Who Jesus really is.

It may be easy enough to say Jesus is the Messiah, but what does that mean? What does Messiah mean? Who was the coming messiah, what was he going to do? What will He do? What could he do if he is just a man? Same thing, if someone wants to just stop thinking and be happy with knowing as little as they can, I know churches filled with them. But God wants us to be wise and be disciples, so I go on. I have a heart for the doctrine, because I felt if these ‘christians’ in Joseph Smiths and Charles Russells time had a grasp of it (just as in our time), there wouldn’t have arisen these sects and misunderstanding of God and Jesus, throughout all kinds of doctrine and sects.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[TheEditor]

I don’t worry about their salvation ‘too’ much, unless ‘they go out of their way to argue against Jesus being God’.

What does it mean to "go out of [ones] way"? Take a right on 38th instead of going directly to Main street? Do not pass "GO" do not collect $200.00?

I have a heart for the doctrine, because I felt if these ‘christians’ in Joseph Smiths and Charles Russells time had a grasp of it (just as in our time), there wouldn’t have arisen these sects and misunderstanding of God and Jesus, throughout all kinds of doctrine and sects.

It may surprise you to know that there were many trinitarians that associated with Russell early on. In fact, the one distinctive that actually unified them was their Anihillationist belief. Perhaps then we need to be suspect of that belief instead, JR? I thought not.... Maybe it would have been better if we had all stayed Catholic? Maybe you're making the case for Brother Allan? Surely you realize that sectarianism is ingrained in human DNA JR? Surely you know that? Have you never heard of "one suspender" versus "two suspender" Amish? I'm pretty sure they're both trinitarian...

Regards, Brenden.

[BrotherAlan]

Hello, jriccitelli--

You wrote:

The body of Christ is made of flesh and atoms. God has indwelt a tent, a tabernacle, a Temple, a body of flesh, and now the people of God, and they in Him. But the tent was not God, neither was the Temple, nor the flesh, nor are we God. God indwells these vessels, but they were not God, and never will be Gods (unless you are a Mormon). I understand incarnate to mean: God indwelt His creation. Jesus may also have created for Himself a human spirit, and blended His created human spirit with His own Spirit, but we don’t know for sure because nothing says this explicitly (albeit I am sure this is in our catechism). I don’t think you believe, like some do, that the human spirit is eternal. Alan, since you are defending the Trinity, I am not sure if I know where you were going with your question (i.e., the question, "Is there generation in God?"), I only wrote this as an exercise to accumulate some scriptures on the subject. But either way, that is my answer.

First, you are correct to distinguish between the human nature of Christ, which nature is composed of a human body and human soul, and His Divine Nature. The human nature (of Christ) itself is not God, but the Person Who possesses this nature, i.e., Jesus Christ, IS God. I think you agree with that, but I'm just spelling it out here for further clarity. [BTW, on this note, I believe that Christ's human soul, like all human souls, had a beginning, but will never die-- so, it's not strictly speaking "eternal" (i.e., existing outside of time, having no beginning and no end), but, rather, it is "everlasting" and immortal...although, often those terms, "eternal" and "everlasting" are used interchangeably.]

To respond to your question as to why I asked this question about whether or not there is generation IN God, I asked this because recognizing this fact leads us to realize that, within God, there is more than one Divine Person-- namely, there is the Father AND the Son (i.e, the Person Whom the Father eternally generates; we are not considering, btw, at this point, the procession of the Third Person of the Trinity). This, in fact, is where Thomas Aquinas begins his discourse on the Trinity-- he first asks, "Is there procession in God?", and then he asks, "Can any procession in God be called 'generation'?" Based on Scripture (eg., John 8:42, Ps. 2:7), he answers in the affirmative to both questions. Now, I do not know exactly what the Mormons believe, but traditional Christian belief in the Trinity (including Catholicism, which Faith I hold) stats that within God there is such a thing as procession (in fact, there are two processions in God), and that one of these processions can be properly called 'generation', i.e., the begetting of a Son from a Father. Thus, Scripture records for us God (I.e., God the Father) stating to Christ, "You are my Son, this day I have begotten you." (Hebrews 1:5; cf., Ps. 2:7). Now, note that I am repeatedly stressing that this generation of the Son from the Father is a generation within God, which means that this generation of the Son from the Father is not the generation of "another God", nor is it the creation of a creature, but, rather, it is the generation of another Person Who is one and the same God with the Father. Rather, again, it is the generation, within God, of another Divine Person-- a generation of the Son from the Father that is so perfect that the Son IS the same God with the Father.

I feel I should here note, again, that this is not polytheism, despite the fact that the mis-characterization of this doctrine as being polytheistic is sometimes made by those who do not believe in (and/or understand) this doctrine (and such a mis-characterization has occurred on this forum, as I, for one, have, with some chagrin, noticed). And, on this point, out of respect for those of us who believe in the Trinity, those who state such things should rather say, "I myself do not personally see how this is not polytheism," rather than positively state, "This IS polytheism". For, those of us who believe in the Trinity are quite adamant in affirming and believing that this is not polytheism (and those believers in the Trinity who have carefully considered the doctrine also see that belief in Three Persons in ONE God is NOT the same as stating there are three "Gods"!) So, again, those who do not believe in the Trinity should not state that belief in the Trinity is polytheism, but, rather, should simply state that they themselves do not understand how one can believe that there are Three Divine Persons and yet only One God...and leave it at that.

I hope that makes some sense and clears up some things...

In Christ, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, and the Son of Blessed Mary,
BrotherAlan

[dwight92070]

To Brenden and anyone else who is interested: Here is my list. I may have missed some but it shows the huge amount of references to the Trinity. Keep in mind, the phrase "Son of God" is a reference to the Father and the Son. I hope you find this useful. Just click on the images to enlarge them.