Trinity.

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dizerner

Re: Trinity.

Post by dizerner » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:15 pm

Then, both God and Jesus are worshiped together, just like God and David were.
I agree the Biblical word "worship" just means falling down and so must be contextual. But do you really think in your heart that the people bowing in homage to David as their king is the same thing as all created things ascribing all worth to the Lamb? David was a sinner—the Lamb was spotless and without blame.
Jesus is also worshiped, not as God Almighty., but as the Lamb who is worthy because of what He accomplished.
In other words, Jesus is not worshiped as the Father, but worshiped as the Son... as long as we understand that God the Son does not function in the role of God the Father, I don't see a problem with it. A mere man could not do what Christ is described as doing, and if we see God imbued inside of Christ, it all makes sense. But again, Christ and the Spirit, under Trinitarian theology, function in their roles for the redemption of mankind, and to bring men to the Father. So in that sense, I don't know why so many Trinitarians are so hostile and divisive, the Spirit and the Son themselves have voluntarily taken a submissive role. It's more of a cool truth that makes you say "Wow, it all makes sense," then some doctrine to beat someone over the head with as an inferior Christian. In fact in many ways I feel like if you come to Scripture as a Trinitarian, it will make you become a Unitarian, and if you come as a Unitarian it will make you become a Trinitarian—and this by virtue of just how subtle it can be woven in, that Unitarians assume it was an outside thing brought in, and many Trinitarians assume it is more plainly in Scripture than it is, because they've simply never studied it and took other peoples' word for it. Because I came as a Trinitarian to Scripture and realized something: a lot of Scripture can sound very much against it. To study, just the Scriptures alone, in such depth that, I found for myself this incredible doctrine emerge from Scripture alone was an incredible experience for me. God became a man, not to act as God, but to act as Redeemer.

Christ became a man, not to act as the Father, but to act as one of us. It is as if, the Father stepped down to become a man, while still staying who he is. And Christ says I'll be that perfection you need, and you know how high God's standard is. Christ said the Father seeks such to worship him, that no one is good but God, that we are to worship and serve the only true God, and no we don't think he was praying to himself, or the Father was talking to himself. Christ functions as the bridge to the Father, not as the Father. But that bridge has got to be something more than human, it has got to reach heights of perfection that only One could reach. Did Christ say "You must believe I am God to be saved," absolutely not. But if you asked Christ "Are you God?" I don't think he would say "No." Christ functioned as a man, and a man must worship God alone. But would you say, in your heart, that Christ is not good? I think a believer knows Christ is good. It so becomes that, when Christ says "No one is good but God alone," it is as if, he is saying to us, "You need someone who can be good as God, and yet still a man—you need a Savior." A mere man just couldn't do it, he could not bridge the gap between God and men.

Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:30 pm

dizerner wrote:But do you really think in your heart that the people bowing in homage to David as their king is the same thing as all created things ascribing all worth to the Lamb? David was a sinner—the Lamb was spotless and without blame.
No, I don't.

The Lamb was spotless and without blame...I agree with you. Jesus is worthy because he overcame and died to ransom mankind, David didn't, but he was still worshiped as King. That's the point I'm trying to make though, that two beings can be worshiped for different reasons, nevertheless, they are still "worshiped." Same word, "proskyneō." If you want to say that Jesus is worshiped as the Son, then I say fine, but the specific reason that is given in the text is that He is worthy. Nothing more is said. The specific reason that God is being worshiped in the passage is that He created. There is nothing in the entire chapter (Rev 5), that proves Jesus is God. Can you see that?

Any argument that only God could do what Jesus did is another discussion altogether. That isn't even hinted at in this passage. We are only discussing what "proskyneō" means, and who can be worshiped, and why.

Jose
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Trinity.

Post by Jose » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:04 pm

BTW, I searched for the word "proskyneō," strong's #4352, and it occurs 72 times in the Greek concordance of the NASB. In all these occurrences, all kinds of things are worshiped including Satan, demons, man made idols, the dragon, the beast, and false gods such as Moloch and Rephan. What I find amazing though, is that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned even once. If the Spirit is indeed a third person who is co-equal with the Father and the Son, isn't it strange that in the entire New Testament, He is not worthy to receive even an honorable mention? Is He not worthy of honor and praise and worship at least as much as the Beast?

dizerner

Re: Trinity.

Post by dizerner » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:37 pm

all kinds of things are worshiped
Yes, humans can worship all kinds of things, that doesn't change what worship means, surely you see that. It's called idolatry to worship something other than God.
Is He not worthy of honor and praise and worship at least as much as the Beast?
Now you know the Bible doesn't tell us to worship the Beast? I don't understand the logic behind this statement at all.
isn't it strange that in the entire New Testament, He is not worthy to receive even an honorable mention?
Yes, it is strange. However, I don't think something simply being strange makes it untrue. The Spirit desires to make the Father and Son known, and we should respect that. You're argument basically boils down to two conclusions I don't think are true.

1. Something must be explicitly stated in Scripture for it to be true.
2. Something is only worthy to be worshiped if it seeks to be the center of attention.

Once we throw out these fallacies, we can look at just how strong the evidence is for the separate identity of the Spirit, and the divine attributes of the Spirit.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:27 pm

The Hebrew word hishtachawah I believe is the equivelant of the Greek proskyneo (worship) and is directed to angelic messengers (Joshua 5:13); by a pagan King to one of God's prophets (Daniel 2:46). The act of bowing may or may not have a religious meaning. Either way, "Kiss the Son lest God be angry" comes to mind, and I have no problem with God instructing His servants to "worship" His Son.

Recall in Revelation that those of the "synagogue of Satan" were to be made to "worship before your [true worshippers'] feet and make them know I have loved you." (Revelation 3:9-10) I can assume we will agree that Jesus what not telling apostate Jews to "worship" Christians.

The Greek words rendered "worship" in English are latreia and proskyneo, I believe Jesus can receive the latter definitely, and perhaps the former, Father willing. But the term "latreia" is probably more accurately rendered "divine service" or "sacred service" and not "worship'. Worship is a bit more of a generic term if you study it out. "Latreia" and it's Hebrew counterpart, is used with respects to serving God (Acts 7:7; Rom. 1:9; 2Tim 1:3; Heb 9:14; 12:28;), such as in the Temple (Heb 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10). The term also is used with reference to false worship to other deities or creation (Acts 7:42; Rom. 1:25)

However, when used for true worship in the Greek text, it appears as though it (latreia) is used uniquely with reference to serving God. (John 16:2; Rom. 9:4; 12:1; Heb 9:1, 6)

According to Jesus when he was tempted by Satan, it is to be directed to God alone:

Then saith Jesus unto him, Withdraw, Satan! for it is written,—The Lord thy God, shalt thou worship, and, to him alone, render divine service. Matt. 4:10. (Rotherham)

If anyone can find a directive to render "latreia" to Jesus in the Scriptures, this would be a strong argument in favor of Binatarianism. I have yet to find such a verse.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Trinity.

Post by dizerner » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:13 pm

If anyone can find a directive to render "latreia" to Jesus in the Scriptures, this would be a strong argument in favor of Binatarianism.
I disagree with the logic of this. Trinitarianism teaches that each Person of the Godhead plays a different role in His relationship to humans. By your logic, every single thing the Scripture says of the Father must be said also of the Son. But Trinitarianism says they are different people in different roles. If we don't see that we fall into Modalism, which is a different argument altogether. Modalism acknowledges the different roles and that each role must be Divine, but then harmonizes the difficulty by reducing the identities. The Son is not the Father is not the Spirit. The Father was not slain, and did not overcome anything. The Spirit was not slain, and did not overcome anything. The Son was slain. If we take the logic that everything each Person of the Trinity is or receives, must be equally shared, we could not even have separate roles at all. Otherwise we could just make an argument like, God cannot be a servant, Jesus became a servant, Gotcha not God! This is why we get verses illustrating all three roles:
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God
So if it isn't receiving Latreia that defines a being as God, what is it. I think the number one definition of God is being self-sufficiently self-existent and uncreated.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:26 pm

Hi Dizerner,

I could accept your reasoning were it not for the fact that this line of logic that you object to, is the exact kind of logic that trinitaians use to prove their doctrinal position. Do you not see this? How often have I been presented with the proposition that since [insert verse] says ABC about the Father and [insert verse] says the same about the Son, then ipso facto the trinity is true. These arguments usually rest on the similarities in roles and attributes. If you are going to disallow my logic, then you have jettisoned much of the reasoning brought to bear by trinitarians.

Regards, Brenden.
Last edited by TheEditor on Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:36 am

dizerner,

We are never going to see eye to eye on this topic and that's ok. It does seem though, that you are missing the whole point of this talk. True, the meaning of "proskyneō" doesn't change, but to insist that to "proskyneō something other than God is idolatry is to ignore the many times people are "worshiped" with God's approval. You already agreed that "the Biblical word "worship" just means falling down." (your post #481)
dizerner wrote:Now you know the Bible doesn't tell us to worship the Beast? I don't understand the logic behind this statement at all.
It's called sarcasm. :)
dizerner wrote:Yes, it is strange. However, I don't think something simply being strange makes it untrue.
Yes, it goes without saying that there are many things in the bible and in the entire universe that are strange and nonetheless true. That is obvious. Is the goal of these discussions to pick apart every word that someone says, or are we trying to arrive at truth? Let me rephrase my statement. "Doesn't the fact that the Holy Spirit is not worshiped in the entire New Testament, as the Father and the Son are, weaken the argument for His existence as a co-equal member of the godhead who is fully deserving of praise and worship?" (I'm sure you'll find a way to disagree) :)

The "fallacies" that you say my argument boils down to seem more like straw men to me. Those are conclusions you've come to, so feel free to throw them out if you like.

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:26 pm

Earlier in this thread I wrote:
The Greek word for worship is proskuneo and this word is used for worship of the one true God, for worship of Jesus, and for worship of idols. It does not mean one thing in one case and have a different meaning in another.
And Jose wrote in response:
one thing I've learned is that proskyneō (worship) is not limited to God, Jesus or idols. It has become that to us in our modern usage, but it had a much broader use in the Bible. The word simply means to do homage, or to bow down. As such, it is used many times with regard to people of rank or someone who is in authority.
The point is that God and Jesus are both worshipped, properly I think, and that when proskuneo is used in reference to idols, false gods, or the Roman emperor it means the same thing, not merely paying homage to them. However, if Jesus is not God then it appears questionable as to why we should worship Him at all in the same sense as we worship the Father. According to Jesus "you shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only".

The early Christians knew that worship of Caesar was more than merely paying respect or homage to him and many of them suffered persecution rather than to bow down to Caesar.

Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:27 am

Homer wrote:The point is that God and Jesus are both worshipped, properly I think, and that when proskuneo is used in reference to idols, false gods, or the Roman emperor it means the same thing, not merely paying homage to them. However, if Jesus is not God then it appears questionable as to why we should worship Him at all in the same sense as we worship the Father. According to Jesus "you shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only".

The early Christians knew that worship of Caesar was more than merely paying respect or homage to him and many of them suffered persecution rather than to bow down to Caesar.
Hi Homer,

I think there may be something to what TheEditor brought up about a different word which is the one that Jesus used when referring to worshiping God only. It seems that He is saying to worship (proskyneo - give honor, respect) and serve only God (latreuo - in a religious manner). Perhaps anyone who is worthy of honor and respect (because they are an authority) can be "proskyneo", but only God should be "latreuo" (served religiously). I imagine that the early Christians considered that bowing to Caesar and affriming him as lord was the equivalent to denying Jesus as Lord. Perhaps they remembered when Jesus said that those who deny Him would not be acknowledged before the Father. It seems that TheEditor was correct when he said that "latreuo" is not used when referring to Jesus.

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Strong's #3000: latreuo (pronounced lat-ryoo'-o)
from latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render religious homage:--serve, do the service, worship(-per).
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Thayer's Greek Lexicon: latreuo

1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
2a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
2b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
2b1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
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Part of Speech: verb

This word is used 21 times:

Matthew 4:10: "and him only shalt thou serve."
Luke 1:74: "the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,"
Luke 2:37: "not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers"
Luke 4:8: "and him only shalt thou serve."
Acts 7:7: "that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place."
Acts 7:42: "turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;"
Acts 24:14: "they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things"
Acts 26:7: "promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night,"
Acts 27:23: "I am, and whom I serve,"
Romans 1:9: "my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in"
Romans 1:25: "and worshiped and served the creature more than the"
Philippians 3:3: "are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice"
2 Timothy 1:3: "I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with"
Hebrews 8:5: "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses"
Hebrews 9:9: "sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"
Hebrews 9:14: "from dead works to serve the living God?"
Hebrews 10:2: "have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had"
Hebrews 12:28: "let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with"
Hebrews 13:10: "they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle."
Revelation 7:15: "the throne of God, and serve him day and"
Revelation 22:3: "in it; and his servants shall serve him:"

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