Trinity.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Trinity.

Post by robbyyoung » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:46 pm

Jose wrote:Hi Robby,

Unfortunately, I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, so it didn't clear things up for me.

Are you saying that Yahweh is the only one who is "the God" and that Jesus is one of many Elohim in the same way that Baal is Elohim?
Hi Jose,

Yes, that's what John 1:1-2 is saying. THE GOD is in view and God (Yeshua) is in view. God (Yeshua), is absolutely unique and above all creation, but neither The Apostles or The Jews, especially during their preaching and persuading in the synagogues of who Messiah was, EVER said Yeshua was YAHWEH, THE GOD. What was required is to believe He was The Messiah sent from THE GOD.

Yeshua said He came from THE GOD. He was not THE GOD. We are required to believe this truth, absent of the understanding of the complexity of The Spiritual Realm. Trinitarians seem push an opinion beyond what is required in the Gospel message. If it's a belief that warrants a division, I would think such a case would be presented in The Apostolic ministry. Yet I find no evidence of this. It seems that Yeshua, being The Messiah, was the all important message.

God Bless.

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:40 pm

One foot=12 inches; One yard = 3feet. But does one of those feet =one yard? Yet this is precisely what trinitarianism espouses’ (Editor)


I can only guess at what meaning your putting into your yard metaphor (I told you what my numerators were: One yard/3 feet. One God/3 persons). Please explain what you meant by the metaphor.

I have never have never come across any definition of the T that says:
3 Gods = 1 God. Neither is one member all of God, without the other members (the lemonade metaphor).


It was your metaphor. You are saying (apparently by your clarification) that the three persons equal one God. By this definition then, if one part were missing, then God would not be total--not be sufficient.

However, the Athanasian Creed reads, in part:

"And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. . .

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."


There are many other Catholic and Anti-Nicene sources that state the matter as I have mentioned before. So the question really is, is this what Jesus and the Apostles taught?

If you wanted to substitute "divine" for "God", I would have no problem with that. If divinity be "God-stuff", like matter is "human-stuff", then of course, the Son is "God". But this is not the definition that the trinitarian wants every believer to bend his knee to. If a "foot" is a "measurement" and a "yard" is a "measurement", then I can accept that. But to say that a foot is "fully a yard" and three feet is also "fully a yard"--this is problematic.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:53 pm

Some Trinitarians put it mathematically:

It's not 1+1+1 = 3

Rather it's 1×1×1 = 1
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:44 am

robbyyoung wrote:
Jose wrote:Hi Robby,

Unfortunately, I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, so it didn't clear things up for me.

Are you saying that Yahweh is the only one who is "the God" and that Jesus is one of many Elohim in the same way that Baal is Elohim?
Hi Jose,

Yes, that's what John 1:1-2 is saying. THE GOD is in view and God (Yeshua) is in view. God (Yeshua), is absolutely unique and above all creation, but neither The Apostles or The Jews, especially during their preaching and persuading in the synagogues of who Messiah was, EVER said Yeshua was YAHWEH, THE GOD. What was required is to believe He was The Messiah sent from THE GOD.

Yeshua said He came from THE GOD. He was not THE GOD. We are required to believe this truth, absent of the understanding of the complexity of The Spiritual Realm. Trinitarians seem push an opinion beyond what is required in the Gospel message. If it's a belief that warrants a division, I would think such a case would be presented in The Apostolic ministry. Yet I find no evidence of this. It seems that Yeshua, being The Messiah, was the all important message.

God Bless.
Hi Robby,

Thanks for answering my question. Your understanding then is that there is Yahweh and Jesus, the former being "the GOD" and the latter being God. Do you see them as being one God, or two Gods?

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robbyyoung
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Re: Trinity.

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:42 am

Jose wrote:Hi Robby,

Thanks for answering my question. Your understanding then is that there is Yahweh and Jesus, the former being "the GOD" and the latter being God. Do you see them as being one God, or two Gods?
Hi Jose,

The O.T. teaches emphatically that there is ONLY ONE supreme GOD (Duet.10:17). This "Supreme God" choses to have a "DIVINE" counsel consisting of spiritual rulers in the heavens that HE HIMSELF calls Gods. Yeshua consistently made it clear that He came from this "Supreme God" and was not HIM. Yeshua identifies himself as being in agreement or one with His Father but never claimed to be The Father. Yes, Yeshua is one of the many Gods in The Divine Counsel, but his status is apparently higher than all things created, for he was first and created all things.

God Bless.

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darinhouston
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Trinity.

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:02 am

Amazing. All I can say is that I wish I could hear a recording from the discussions at and around Nicea. I think most Trinitarian formulations today would sound like they were from some sort of Gnostic cult to their ears.

It also reminds me of dispensationalal charting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:27 am

robbyyoung wrote:
Jose wrote:Hi Robby,

Thanks for answering my question. Your understanding then is that there is Yahweh and Jesus, the former being "the GOD" and the latter being God. Do you see them as being one God, or two Gods?
Hi Jose,

The O.T. teaches emphatically that there is ONLY ONE supreme GOD (Duet.10:17). This "Supreme God" choses to have a "DIVINE" counsel consisting of spiritual rulers in the heavens that HE HIMSELF calls Gods. Yeshua consistently made it clear that He came from this "Supreme God" and was not HIM. Yeshua identifies himself as being in agreement or one with His Father but never claimed to be The Father. Yes, Yeshua is one of the many Gods in The Divine Counsel, but his status is apparently higher than all things created, for he was first and created all things.

God Bless.
Robby,

I think it's true that Jesus is not the Father. The rest of your view, or at least how you've expressed it, makes me think of the movie "Clash of the Titans." Unless you are using the term "elohim" in a more generic way, I can't see how what you're saying differs much from Greek mythology.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Trinity.

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:16 pm

Jose wrote:Robby,

I think it's true that Jesus is not the Father. The rest of your view, or at least how you've expressed it, makes me think of the movie "Clash of the Titans." Unless you are using the term "elohim" in a more generic way, I can't see how what you're saying differs much from Greek mythology.
Hi Jose,

If you have no more questions for me regarding the scriptures I presented regarding THE GOD ordained "many other Gods" ruling in the spiritual realm, I guess we have exhausted the conversation. I hold to the biblical account, in which Greek mythology and all others accounts spawned. For example, did you know that GOD separated mankind at the Tower of Babel according to The Sons of God (The Watchers, Angelic Rulers or Gods), 70 nations, each with a Spirtual Rulers over them?

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of men, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the SONS OF GOD. "For the LORD'S portion is His people; Jacob is the allotment of His inheritance.DEUTERONOMY 32:8-9 RSV

Israel is not to worship the watchers. Speaking of judgment that was to come upon disobedient Israel, Moses says:

"All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?' "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them. 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book; Deuteronomy 29:24-27 NASB

These Gods that Israel worshiped were "not allotted to them" those Gods were allotted to the nations.

Nevertheless, thanks for the discussion and God Bless.

Jose
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Jose » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:28 pm

robbyyoung wrote:
Jose wrote:Robby,

I think it's true that Jesus is not the Father. The rest of your view, or at least how you've expressed it, makes me think of the movie "Clash of the Titans." Unless you are using the term "elohim" in a more generic way, I can't see how what you're saying differs much from Greek mythology.
Hi Jose,

If you have no more questions for me regarding the scriptures I presented regarding THE GOD ordained "many other Gods" ruling in the spiritual realm, I guess we have exhausted the conversation. I hold to the biblical account, in which Greek mythology and all others accounts spawned. For example, did you know that GOD separated mankind at the Tower of Babel according to The Sons of God (The Watchers, Angelic Rulers or Gods), 70 nations, each with a Spirtual Rulers over them?

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of men, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the SONS OF GOD. "For the LORD'S portion is His people; Jacob is the allotment of His inheritance.DEUTERONOMY 32:8-9 RSV

Israel is not to worship the watchers. Speaking of judgment that was to come upon disobedient Israel, Moses says:

"All the nations will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?' "Then men will say, 'Because they forsook the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. 'They went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods whom they have not known and whom He had not allotted to them. 'Therefore, the anger of the LORD burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book; Deuteronomy 29:24-27 NASB

These Gods that Israel worshiped were "not allotted to them" those Gods were allotted to the nations.

Nevertheless, thanks for the discussion and God Bless.
Hi Robby,

Apparently you feel that you've fully explained your views so I won't tire you with any more questions.

As far as the teaching about the 70 nations and their Spiritual Rulers is concerned, you've no doubt been listening to Dave Curtis from Virginia. I've been familiar with his ministry for many years now. Aside from the fact that he's a full preterist and a Calvinist, he lost credibility with me when he began teaching geocentrism, and saying that people will continue to sin in heaven.

dizerner

Re: Trinity.

Post by dizerner » Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:59 pm

If divinity be "God-stuff", like matter is "human-stuff", then of course, the Son is "God".

I appreciate your open-mindedness on that. I, for one, would have no problem at all simply going along with what you said here. The Son is God-stuff, the Spirit is God-stuff, the Father is God... who obviously would also be whatever God-stuff is.

But then, when I put my thinking cap on, I wonder if "God-stuff" is something that would be in any way lesser than the original God. We can talk in a way like "we all have a spark of divinity within us" as the highest created physical order. Does that make us "God-stuff" in the same way that the Son is? Aye, there's the rub for me. For the NT may very well say we become partakers of the divine nature, but only by virtue of Christ in us, that is, Christ can literally be inside us in some way, and therefore we share in his "God-stuff." But is Christ only sharing the "God-stuff" by somehow being in the Father, such that Christ could be removed from the Father and his "God-stuff" would go *poof*? Or was the God-stuff in Christ actually who he was inherently, and thus truly sharing the essence of whatever God is essentially and not dependently. Yet Christ is consistently described as a headspring of Life, and not an dependent branch of it.

We know Christ as man expressed dependence and admitted limitations, however whatever those statements were it would seem presumption to then backtrack them to his pre-existent state. They seem intimately connected with the humiliation in his role as "Son of Man." Christ is described as the Author of Life and the Lord of Glory, things which, it is said, would not be deduced from his appearance as a mere man making himself out to be God. In fact Scripture makes quite a point of saying his physical appearance was not all that impressive, and that he experienced the sorrow of loneliness and rejection from his peers. He lived a real human life, in other words, not jumping off temples or calling fire down whenever anyone said to him "Who do you think you are?"

He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

So you say, despite the fact that the Son had no beauty or majesty in his appearance, and was despised and held in low esteem, he "of course" had "God stuff." Now the question that arises naturally to me is, how is this God-stuff so incredibly well-hidden? I mean if you think this incredible paradox is simply obvious ("of course the Son is God[-stuff]"), then why do other seeming paradoxes seem to trouble you simply by virtue of them being paradoxical? We are going to have to go to the old saying of not judging a book by its cover. Oh, wait, didn't Christ say something like that?

Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment

And Paul seems to passionately share this same view expressed by Christ, and even specifically applies it to Christ:

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

So could we say that Paul now knew Christ according to his God-stuff? Most of the objections against Christ's divinity or his pre-existence seem related to the fact that Christ functioned as real human being. If we come with the a prior insistence that a real human being automatically rules out that human being, being another more than a human being, we've won the argument with a priori assumptions before we've even begun any debate. It's as obvious as a cat being unable to also be a dog, as a man to also be God... unless of course we water the meaning of God-stuff to something very unlike God in any way, something created and dependent. Yet how can God-stuff be stuff of God himself if it is created and dependent, the very things God is not. Thus I think if we take the stuff of God, and generate or divide from it, we also have all the attributes of God. God-stuff, by definition, must be uncreated and independent, for that is the essence of God.

And, in fact, since we see in Scripture a consistent terminology applying the official title God only to the Father, and the Spirit and the Son being mostly called God-stuff or Lord, we may come off genuinely puzzled that two other persons could have God-stuff, but not the official title of God. However, we see a closer unity among them, then among believers and Christ, since they all share divine attributes independently, and a unity so close that they feel free to express themselves as One and the pronoun "I". No Christian would say "I created the world, I'm the Alpha and Omega, I'm the Vine and Door of Salvation, I shared glory with the Father before the world began and Abraham was born, I'm the exact representation of the invisible God." So ergo, no Christian could really say, "Hey, I've got God-stuff too."

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