Did Israel possess all the promised territory?

[steve]

I received the following question (and sent the following answer) by way of email today:

Hi Steve,
I heard you say Israel  possessed land all the way to the Euphrates river. My Bible maps do not show that. The city of Babylon is on the Euphrates river. On my map that is a long way from the boundary of Israel during the reign of David or Solomon. I believe the Bible says they never possessed all the land God wanted them to. What were those two Bible verses that prove they had possessed all the land? I know you spoke about two of them but I didn't get to write them down.
Thank-you very much, Gary

Hi Gary,

The first reference is Joshua 21:43-45, which categorically says that Israel possessed all the land that God had promised to them. There is no passage in scripture that says that they did not, though that is the claim of dispensational teachers—giving us the option of believing them or believing the plain statements of scripture. Dispensationalists point out that Judges mentions certain cities and regions in Palestine in which the Canaanites were not fully defeated or driven out, but Joshua certainly was aware of these facts, and they did not prevent him from saying that Israel possessed all the land they were promised. I guess we are to assume that "possessed" and "dwelt in" are terms that do not preclude insignificant spots in which, by Israel's concession, the original inhabitants remained unmolested (perhaps analogous to the native Americans on Indian reservations, whose presence is not thought to nullify the white man's conquest of the whole continent).

The other passage is 1 Kings 4:23, which speaks of Solomon's dominion. The first boundary mentioned is "the River," which all commentators acknowledge to be the Euphrates. The other boundaries also correspond to those mentioned in Genesis 15:18. Solomon's reign over these territories clearly indicates that they had been conquered by his predecessor David—meaning that they had been conquered and incorporated into Israel's empire (they would not be paying tribute to Israel's king had they not been conquered by Israel).

I found a map online that shows the extent of David's reign, which includes the Euphrates as the northeastern border. You can see it here: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=zob ... ajaxhist=0

This territory would satisfy the terms of the promise made to Abraham. Again, in the absence of any scriptural statements claiming that God failed to deliver on His promise, we would seem obliged to recognize the promise as fulfilled.

Once conquered, however, the land was not unconditionally to remain Israel's possession. It is true that the promise was that the land would be theirs "forever," but that is only on the condition of their perpetual faithfulness to the covenant (which they continually broke). In fact, God later clarified that every promise and every threat that He ever makes to any nation, including Israel, must be regarded as conditional (Jer.18:7-10).

In Deuteronomy 28:20-21, and verse 63, God specifically threatened to destroy Israel and remove them from the land, if they proved to be disobedient (v.15). Just as He promised that the blessings would be faithful Israel's "forever," He also warned that their rebellion would cause the curses to remain on them "forever" (vv.45-46). The "forever" is the same in both the promise and in the threat.

In Leviticus 18, God told Israel that the Canaanites were being expelled ("vomited") from the land strictly because of the evil things they practiced (vv.24-25). He then warned that, if Israel were to imitate those evil practices, their tenure in the land would similarly be cut short, and they, too, would be vomited out of it (vv.26-28). Not only did Israel duplicate the sins of the Canaanites, but the canonical historians report that they, at times, exceeded the Canaanites in their wickedness (1 Kings 21:26; 2 Kings 21:11).

The last straw was their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah (Mat.21:37) which caused God to destroy their nation (Luke 19:41-44; 20:15-16) and scatter them from the land (Luke 21:20-24)—just as He had threatened to do all along. Beyond their expulsion in AD 70, there exists no promise in scripture of any restoration of the Jews to their Land, nor of their having any continuing rights to it.

[dwilkins]

Steve,

That is a great response. I'd only add that our modern western understanding of "forever" was not the same as the ancient one based on either Hebrew or Greek. In addition to the contingency you cited, their idea of it had a time horizon that disappeared into a fog in the distant past and future, and had more to do with the endurance of the age than our idea of mathematical infinity.

Obviously, the question comes connected to modern Zionism and the "regathering of Israel". I don't think there has been any regathering. But, if we grant for the sake of argument that there has been one the proponents of that argument seem to base the class of people who regathered on the group of Jews who were scattered after the Roman War in the first century. The problem is that this is not the full class of people entitled to the land in Genesis. There is still the matter of the physical descendants of the 10 tribes carried off by Assyria who, as physical descendants of Jacob, are just as entitled to the land as the modern Jews would be. I suppose that we'd have to come up with a percentage of bloodline that made one eligible for the Genesis promise in order to calculate how large this group is. But, I propose that this group is many times greater than the total number of modern Jews worldwide. Therefore, in order to be fair about a right to return, we'd probably have to demand that about 50 million Muslim Turks, Kurds, and Persians be allowed to immigrate to Israel. I doubt that anyone would think this is a good idea.

Doug

[steve7150]

Therefore, in order to be fair about a right to return, we'd probably have to demand that about 50 million Muslim Turks, Kurds, and Persians be allowed to immigrate to Israel. I doubt that anyone would think this is a good idea.









I wouldn't take it that way. If God meant for Israel to be restored i would take it as the nation of Israel restored with the inhabitants considering it to be a Jewish state and themselves as Jews.
As far as the 10 tribes go i think God divorced them( Israel) but didn't divorce Judah but i'm not sure if that has relevance.

[dwilkins]

I'm confused about how you are defining "Jew". And, are you saying that as of the Assyrian invasion there was no further destiny for the ten tribes?

[steve7150]

I'm confused about how you are defining "Jew". And, are you saying that as of the Assyrian invasion there was no further destiny for the ten tribes?







Well i'm no expert on this but it seems to me that since God divorced these ten tribes which i think were called Israel that may impact their destiny. Also as you said they were taken away in judgment and probably mostly never thought as themselves as Jews
after a time, although that is my assumption.
For example i've heard various theories such as the Kurds may be from those tribes but they don't see themselves as Jews.
Lastly my understanding of the word "jew" is that it means a descendent from the tribe of Judah.

[dwilkins]

I think part of the problem is that your definition of "Jew" doesn't make sense. To start with, why would the ten tribes have ever considered themselves Jews if they weren't members of the tribe of Judah? If they never did, then your comment that the ten tribes stopped considering themselves as Jews doesn't make any sense. But, it turns out that the term Jew actually comes from the label given to people who were members of the southern kingdom and the subsequent Judean nation, which is why Paul could be from the tribe of Benjamin and still be a Jew.

As far as the destiny of the ten tribes goes, I encourage you to read Hosea and the parts of Ezekiel that deal with the independent destinies of the two nations. It was promised that someday the two would become one again, which throws a wrench in the dispensationalist and Zionist math.

[edited to fix some mistakes from my phone generated post earlier]

[steve7150]

But, it turns out that the term Jew actually comes from the label given to people who were members of the southern kingdom and the subsequent judean nation, which is why Paul could be free m the tribe of Benjamin and still be a Jew.










Well yes that's exactly what i said in my last sentence. Plus i said the ten tribes undoubtedly stopped thinking they were jewish at some point after they were taken away in judgment. It could have been generations later, who knows.
As far as Ezekial And Hosea goes perhaps it refers to the nation of Israel, not the individual descendents of all these tribes.

[dwilkins]

You just did it again. The ten tribes never stopped seeing themselves as Jewish because they never started. They were Israelites. The Jews were a category of people that didn't exist when the Assyrians wiped out the ten tribes.

I don't understand your point about Ezekiel and Hosea. Both of those books are very clear, and Paul's reference to Hosea in Romans 9 is profound on this point, that someday the two groups would be reunited. This would happen at the time of the regathering of Israel into one nation again.

Doug

[steve7150]

You just did it again. The ten tribes never stopped seeing themselves as Jewish because they never started. They were Israelites. The Jews were a category of people that didn't exist when the Assyrians wiped out the ten tribes.









OK agreed they were Israelites. If you have in mind any specific verses in Ezekial & Hosea i would appreciate you sharing them for my own edification. thanks

[dwilkins]

I apologize for it being so long, but the whole chapter turns out to be very important:

Ezekiel 23:1-49 (ESV)
1 The word of the Lord came to me:
2 "Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother.
3 They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled.
4 Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
5 "Oholah played the whore while she was mine, and she lusted after her lovers the Assyrians, warriors
6 clothed in purple, governors and commanders, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding on horses.
7 She bestowed her whoring upon them, the choicest men of Assyria all of them, and she defiled herself with all the idols of everyone after whom she lusted.
8 She did not give up her whoring that she had begun in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her and handled her virgin bosom and poured out their whoring lust upon her.
9 Therefore I delivered her into the hands of her lovers, into the hands of the Assyrians, after whom she lusted.
10 These uncovered her nakedness; they seized her sons and her daughters; and as for her, they killed her with the sword; and she became a byword among women, when judgment had been executed on her.
11 "Her sister Oholibah saw this, and she became more corrupt than her sister in her lust and in her whoring, which was worse than that of her sister.
12 She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and commanders, warriors clothed in full armor, horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men.
13 And I saw that she was defiled; they both took the same way.
14 But she carried her whoring further. She saw men portrayed on the wall, the images of the Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion,
15 wearing belts on their waists, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them having the appearance of officers, a likeness of Babylonians whose native land was Chaldea.
16 When she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea.
17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoring lust. And after she was defiled by them, she turned from them in disgust.
18 When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned in disgust from her sister.
19 Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt
20 and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses.
21 Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts."
22 Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I will stir up against you your lovers from whom you turned in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side:
23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, desirable young men, governors and commanders all of them, officers and men of renown, all of them riding on horses.
24 And they shall come against you from the north with chariots and wagons and a host of peoples. They shall set themselves against you on every side with buckler, shield, and helmet; and I will commit the judgment to them, and they shall judge you according to their judgments.
25 And I will direct my jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in fury. They shall cut off your nose and your ears, and your survivors shall fall by the sword. They shall seize your sons and your daughters, and your survivors shall be devoured by fire.
26 They shall also strip you of your clothes and take away your beautiful jewels.
27 Thus I will put an end to your lewdness and your whoring begun in the land of Egypt, so that you shall not lift up your eyes to them or remember Egypt anymore.
28 "For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will deliver you into the hands of those whom you hate, into the hands of those from whom you turned in disgust,
29 and they shall deal with you in hatred and take away all the fruit of your labor and leave you naked and bare, and the nakedness of your whoring shall be uncovered. Your lewdness and your whoring
30 have brought this upon you, because you played the whore with the nations and defiled yourself with their idols.
31 You have gone the way of your sister; therefore I will give her cup into your hand.
32 Thus says the Lord God: "You shall drink your sister's cup that is deep and large; you shall be laughed at and held in derision, for it contains much;
33 you will be filled with drunkenness and sorrow. A cup of horror and desolation, the cup of your sister Samaria;
34 you shall drink it and drain it out, and gnaw its shards, and tear your breasts; for I have spoken, declares the Lord God.
35 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have forgotten me and cast me behind your back, you yourself must bear the consequences of your lewdness and whoring."
36 The Lord said to me: "Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Declare to them their abominations.
37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. With their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me.
38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths.
39 For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And behold, this is what they did in my house.
40 They even sent for men to come from afar, to whom a messenger was sent; and behold, they came. For them you bathed yourself, painted your eyes, and adorned yourself with ornaments.
41 You sat on a stately couch, with a table spread before it on which you had placed my incense and my oil.
42 The sound of a carefree multitude was with her; and with men of the common sort drunkards were brought from the wilderness; and they put bracelets on the hands of the women, and beautiful crowns on their heads.
43 "Then I said of her who was worn out by adultery, Now they will continue to use her for a whore, even her!
44 For they have gone in to her, as men go in to a prostitute. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, lewd women!
45 But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women who shed blood, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands."
46 For thus says the Lord God: "Bring up a vast host against them, and make them an object of terror and a plunder.
47 And the host shall stone them and cut them down with their swords. They shall kill their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses.
48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done.
49 And they shall return your lewdness upon you, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry, and you shall know that I am the Lord God."

I'd add Hosea 2 to this for similar imagery - more -