Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Thanks for these video links. I'm actually not convinced about this two YHWH idea, but it's interesting to hear his perspective, and he talks about so many other things as well.
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Hello Apollos 
Just an aside here (as there's a lot we could discuss)!
And here's some stuff....
Gen 1 (nkjv)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Jn 1 (nkjv)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Based on these texts -
1) Did God create everything?
Yes.
2) Did the Word Who was with God create everything?
Yes.
3) Is God God or is the Word God?
Yes!!
4) If God and the Word are God are we talking about "two Gods"?
Yes and No.
Yes, as there are two distinct (capital D) Divine Beings.
No, as both share (capital D) Divinity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deut 6 (nkjv)
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one!
1 Cor 8 (nkjv)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Deut 6:4 and 1 Cor 8:5-6 (above) reveal -
1) Israel has One God, the LORD.
2) But is this One God the Father?
Yes.
3) Yet is not Jesus the LORD, the God of Israel?
Yes.
4) But are not Jesus and the Father different?
Yes and No.
Yes, they are "two YHWHs" (cf. Divine Beings, above).
No, they are the One LORD God of Israel (cf. Divinity, above).
Note: How Paul carefully reworks and applies the Shema () in a "Two Powers way" in . Was this a completely new revelation, that the God of Israel manifests and exists as "Two Powers"? I think not. It was common among differing "Judaisms" (similar to what we call "denominations") of the period. What was unique and new with Paul and the Christians was that Jesus is The Second Power or "second God" (as Philo called the Word/LOGOS).
But wait a minute!
Are there "two Gods" and "two YHWHs"?
Yes, Two Divine Beings.
No, YHWH is One.
Two Divine Beings, One Divinity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Heiser's "Two Powers" Vid (Part 4, @ minutes)
Gen 19 (nkjv)
15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”
18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”
21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”
Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
The angels, referred to as "lords", speak the word of the LORD. Yet "he said to them" (v.21). So the LORD speaks through two angels in one voice. Isn't the sentence structure of v. 24 odd? It's like the angels ARE the LORD on earth ("calling down" the brimstone and fire), but yet, as the LORD remains in the heavens.
Amos 4 (nkjv, the LORD is speaking)
11 “ I overthrew some of you,
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.
Is YHWH (the LORD) referring to Himself or God?
Yes. "It's like we have two figures," as Heiser points out.
Two Gods or One?
YES!!!
(Heiser develops this much further. He and I are trinitarian!).....take care!
Just an aside here (as there's a lot we could discuss)!
You're welcome!You wrote:Thanks for these video links. I'm actually not convinced about this two YHWH idea, but it's interesting to hear his perspective, and he talks about so many other things as well.
And here's some stuff....
Gen 1 (nkjv)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Jn 1 (nkjv)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Based on these texts -
1) Did God create everything?
Yes.
2) Did the Word Who was with God create everything?
Yes.
3) Is God God or is the Word God?
Yes!!
4) If God and the Word are God are we talking about "two Gods"?
Yes and No.
Yes, as there are two distinct (capital D) Divine Beings.
No, as both share (capital D) Divinity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Deut 6 (nkjv)
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one!
1 Cor 8 (nkjv)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Deut 6:4 and 1 Cor 8:5-6 (above) reveal -
1) Israel has One God, the LORD.
2) But is this One God the Father?
Yes.
3) Yet is not Jesus the LORD, the God of Israel?
Yes.
4) But are not Jesus and the Father different?
Yes and No.
Yes, they are "two YHWHs" (cf. Divine Beings, above).
No, they are the One LORD God of Israel (cf. Divinity, above).
Note: How Paul carefully reworks and applies the Shema () in a "Two Powers way" in . Was this a completely new revelation, that the God of Israel manifests and exists as "Two Powers"? I think not. It was common among differing "Judaisms" (similar to what we call "denominations") of the period. What was unique and new with Paul and the Christians was that Jesus is The Second Power or "second God" (as Philo called the Word/LOGOS).
But wait a minute!
Are there "two Gods" and "two YHWHs"?
Yes, Two Divine Beings.
No, YHWH is One.
Two Divine Beings, One Divinity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Heiser's "Two Powers" Vid (Part 4, @ minutes)
Gen 19 (nkjv)
15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”
18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”
21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”
Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
The angels, referred to as "lords", speak the word of the LORD. Yet "he said to them" (v.21). So the LORD speaks through two angels in one voice. Isn't the sentence structure of v. 24 odd? It's like the angels ARE the LORD on earth ("calling down" the brimstone and fire), but yet, as the LORD remains in the heavens.
Amos 4 (nkjv, the LORD is speaking)
11 “ I overthrew some of you,
As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah,
And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning;
Yet you have not returned to Me,”
Says the LORD.
Is YHWH (the LORD) referring to Himself or God?
Yes. "It's like we have two figures," as Heiser points out.
Two Gods or One?
YES!!!
(Heiser develops this much further. He and I are trinitarian!).....take care!
Last edited by RickC on Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:20 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
I found a related Heiser video (isn't specifically on topic).
Click the "The Godhead of the OT" vid at bottom -
http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity_%28more_audio%29
Mike's not in the video himself, but all relevant texts are.
Thanks!
Click the "The Godhead of the OT" vid at bottom -
http://www.theopedia.com/Trinity_%28more_audio%29
Mike's not in the video himself, but all relevant texts are.
Thanks!
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Thanks again for all those links - I'm still working through them all, but this is excellent material, and I'm even rethinking the two powers idea.
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
You're welcome.Hi Apollos, you wrote:Thanks again for all those links - I'm still working through them all, but this is excellent material, and I'm even rethinking the two powers idea.
I've had to work through - (and still am working through) - all of this material!
On "Two Powers"
I've been 'convinced' about this for several years, after reading -
Margaret Barker's:
The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God
(Amazon URL) - http://preview.tinyurl.com/27j2cl5
Larry Hurtado's:
One God, One Lord: Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism
(Amazon URL) - http://tinyurl.com/3yjed7b
as well as Alan Segal's:
Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports About Christianity and Gnosticism
(Amazon URL) - http://tinyurl.com/368dylg
I had TONS of articles on all of this stuff but lost them in a computer crash!
(Have to re-collect them now!).....sigh, oh well.......
I know a Jewish brother in my church who I've gotten with on some of these things (like Nephilim) and hope to get with him some time. He's really busy right now though....
One thing about talking about "two powers" for me has been: I have to realize that this was, technically and historically speaking, before the Church became predominantly Gentile. And how the doctrine of the trinity developed as essentially 'separate' from Christianity's Jewish roots. Yet in some of the Early Church Fathers who were Gentile, 'traces of two powers teaching' is still there (cf. Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho). Justin was a Samaritan, and was undoubtedly familiar with local two powers teachings in the area (Samaria being proximal to Judea, etc.).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Related Article -
(@ this URL) - http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Dev ... esus.shtml
Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity: Recent Scholarly Developments
By Larry W. Hurtado
Professor of New Testament Language Literature and Theology
University of Edinburgh (Scotland)
April 2003
I'll leave it there for now, Apollos....
Back to the vids!
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
once upon a time ... I thought I had things pretty well figured out!
Here's one I just found -
http://jbburnett.com/resources/barker/b ... 0philo.pdf
Here's one I just found -
http://jbburnett.com/resources/barker/b ... 0philo.pdf
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Apollos -
Yes, there's quite a lot to figure out doing these historical biblical studies, huh?
Thanks for the Barker article (I bookmarked it for reference).
Since Philo lived in the 1st century, that's really good stuff for NT era studies!
Perhaps we should have started a new thread(?).
But at some point, I'd like to get back to the primary topic.
Might see you here on that some time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But first, I came across this today from BW3 (Ben Witherington III) -
The Indelible Image: Relating the OT & NT Thought Worlds
(I thought you might be interested, especially with the non-canonical references).
Exceprt
The Old Testament, taken as a whole, has precious little to say about the afterlife and only somewhat more about eschatology. And indeed, it is mostly the very latest Old Testament books, including especially the more apocalyptic prophets, that have anything of consequence to say on this subject; and sometimes, even when talking about the Yom Yahweh, they are talking not about some final eschatological judgment on the world but rather about a temporal judgment on Israel and/or the nations after which there can be redemption for God's people and further mundane life.
By comparison, the thought world of the New Testament writers is overwhelmingly eschatological in character. In this respect, the New Testament thought world is far more
like the thought world of some of the intertestamental Jewish literature than that of the
Old Testament. Of course, this could be said to create a problem for canonical theologians, at least for those who want to limit the discussion within the parameters of what is found in the Old Testament and the New Testament. But there are red flags right within various New Testament books against taking this sort of approach as well. For example, the little document called "Jude" clearly draws on extracanonical material from the Enoch literature and probably from Apocalypse of Moses as well. And then we have Paul, who shows the influence of Wisdom of Solomon, and James, who draws on Sirach. Thus, we can focus on the relationship between the thought worlds of the Old Testament and the New Testament, but we should not limit ourselves to that discussion, not least because important ideas such as bodily resurrection of the dead, although they did not germinate in the intertestamental period, certainly gestated in that period. When it comes to the Old Testament itself, the concept of resurrection is barely mentioned, in Daniel 12:1-2 and as a metaphor in Ezekiel (and see Is 26:19). Put simply, some of the concepts most crucial and determinative for the early Christian thinkers are almost absent from the Old Testament. Christian theology and ethics could never be done purely on the basis of the careful interpretation of the Old Testament.
End Excerpt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take care
Yes, there's quite a lot to figure out doing these historical biblical studies, huh?
Thanks for the Barker article (I bookmarked it for reference).
Since Philo lived in the 1st century, that's really good stuff for NT era studies!
Perhaps we should have started a new thread(?).
But at some point, I'd like to get back to the primary topic.
Might see you here on that some time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But first, I came across this today from BW3 (Ben Witherington III) -
The Indelible Image: Relating the OT & NT Thought Worlds
(I thought you might be interested, especially with the non-canonical references).
Exceprt
The Old Testament, taken as a whole, has precious little to say about the afterlife and only somewhat more about eschatology. And indeed, it is mostly the very latest Old Testament books, including especially the more apocalyptic prophets, that have anything of consequence to say on this subject; and sometimes, even when talking about the Yom Yahweh, they are talking not about some final eschatological judgment on the world but rather about a temporal judgment on Israel and/or the nations after which there can be redemption for God's people and further mundane life.
By comparison, the thought world of the New Testament writers is overwhelmingly eschatological in character. In this respect, the New Testament thought world is far more
like the thought world of some of the intertestamental Jewish literature than that of the
Old Testament. Of course, this could be said to create a problem for canonical theologians, at least for those who want to limit the discussion within the parameters of what is found in the Old Testament and the New Testament. But there are red flags right within various New Testament books against taking this sort of approach as well. For example, the little document called "Jude" clearly draws on extracanonical material from the Enoch literature and probably from Apocalypse of Moses as well. And then we have Paul, who shows the influence of Wisdom of Solomon, and James, who draws on Sirach. Thus, we can focus on the relationship between the thought worlds of the Old Testament and the New Testament, but we should not limit ourselves to that discussion, not least because important ideas such as bodily resurrection of the dead, although they did not germinate in the intertestamental period, certainly gestated in that period. When it comes to the Old Testament itself, the concept of resurrection is barely mentioned, in Daniel 12:1-2 and as a metaphor in Ezekiel (and see Is 26:19). Put simply, some of the concepts most crucial and determinative for the early Christian thinkers are almost absent from the Old Testament. Christian theology and ethics could never be done purely on the basis of the careful interpretation of the Old Testament.
End Excerpt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Take care
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Rick, have you seen the new online school Heiser has set up?
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
Apollos -
No, I haven't heard this and can't find a link to it. Got one?
(Not that I'm planning to go back to school right now)....
It's been a while (this thread).
I found some stuff I wanted to post on it, but got side-tracked on other things. Besides that, "nephilim" and all-things-related is an ongoing study with me. I'll try to find what I "had" and post it some time before long.
Thanks!
No, I haven't heard this and can't find a link to it. Got one?
(Not that I'm planning to go back to school right now)....
It's been a while (this thread).
I found some stuff I wanted to post on it, but got side-tracked on other things. Besides that, "nephilim" and all-things-related is an ongoing study with me. I'll try to find what I "had" and post it some time before long.
Thanks!
Re: Beni ha'Elohim - Angeloi tou Theou LXX Alex.
It's http://www.memrau.com/RickC wrote:Apollos -
No, I haven't heard this and can't find a link to it. Got one?
(Not that I'm planning to go back to school right now)....
It's been a while (this thread).
I found some stuff I wanted to post on it, but got side-tracked on other things. Besides that, "nephilim" and all-things-related is an ongoing study with me. I'll try to find what I "had" and post it some time before long.
Thanks!
I signed up for the online Biblical Theology course. Should be fun (though will keep me busy, what with full-time school as well).
It has been a while ... and I've been very busy reading up on a lot of this material as well. I'm a lot more inclined to the whole two powers idea now, and been studying the nephilim thing as well. If you can't find any articles, but can remember the titles, I might be able to track it down. My 'to read' list has exploded!