No, I'm pretty much on my own I guess. I've heard many comment on these chapters but no one I agree with completely.mikew wrote:P.S.
I'm curious if there is someone's view of Rom 9 to 11 (or just 11) that you have specifically clung to. This is just for my curiosity, not for influencing the discussion here.
Debate: Church/Israel
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
Shalom Alekhim! Irene Su! Pax vobiscum! Peace y'all!
I come to this topic from a Oriental Orthodox prespective. Most say God's Chosen Community (Elect Church) began Pentacost AD 30. Yet I hold that the "Israel of God" began on Pentacost 1450 BC......at Mount Horeb in Midian (Sinai). This People was and is the Covenant People...but not all biological Israel is Spiritual Israel. Factually, the Hebrew People, for the most part, broke that Covenant almost immediately........so a time of chastisement came until Messiah. Then, as Jeremiah and the Prophets foretold, Messiah chose 12 new National Elders (12 Apostles) and established a New and Different Covenant with the Faithful Remnant of Biological Israel and with all of Spiritual Israel (Jew & Gentile into one New People). The Torah that was inscribed on Tablets on the Former defiled Horeb Covenant, is now forever inscribed on the hearts of all of God's Spiritual Israel. And to seal this fact God's Finger was again present before all Israel (Fleshly & Spiritual) on Pentecost 30 AD to reveal all Truth to Messiah's Apostles as was promised...and to fill all 120 with this same inscribing Spirit.
Thus the debate between Church and Israel is foolish to me.........The Church has always been Israel and not all who are by blood Hebrew can be called Israel......for Israel is the Chosen Covenant People of God.....and only Spiritual Israel (Jew & Gentile Nazaraeans) under the New Messianic Covenant of Jesus of Nazareth are that People.
Has the "Church" replaced "Israel"? No. How can the Church of God replace the Israel of God, when from the beginning at Sinai, these have been One and the Same People. The Church is She who was engaged at Sinai and gave birth to Messiah and Her other children the Dragon hates. The Church is the Bride of God in the Pentateuch, the Prophets and the Writings....She is the Bride awaiting Her Lord and God's return. She is all those who have been faithful to the foreknown summons of God, who are foreknown and have been foreseen to dwell immortally in the New Jerusalem of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
So do you see why I see the argument as foolish? It seems to be based upon a false premise, and thus leads to various false arguments and conclusions. Though Covenants between God and His Bride have been changed, though His Bride has become dirty with Her errors...She was not rejected but reclaimed and renewed by His Loving kindness, and is maturing and being washed in His own blood. She is being made ready, pure and dressed in White for Her Marriage to Her Husband: The God of Israel Incarnate. this is the Eschatology of the Scripture and God's People....well that is until "Christendom" was declared when Constantine became a Christian and His Son declared the Religion of State to be the Imperial Church of the recognized 5 Patriarchates within the Empire of the Two Romes. Then a New Paradigm was in effect and Church identity and Eschatology shifted to a Imperially PC A-Millenialism which redefined dialectics, exegetics and doctrine.
One God/Messiah and One Covenant People/Bride since Sinai to the New Heavens and New Earth. One broken marriage contract, and one new marriage contract.....one love Affair between YHVH and His Bride Israel.
In Christ,
Rev. Kenneth W. Huffman
I come to this topic from a Oriental Orthodox prespective. Most say God's Chosen Community (Elect Church) began Pentacost AD 30. Yet I hold that the "Israel of God" began on Pentacost 1450 BC......at Mount Horeb in Midian (Sinai). This People was and is the Covenant People...but not all biological Israel is Spiritual Israel. Factually, the Hebrew People, for the most part, broke that Covenant almost immediately........so a time of chastisement came until Messiah. Then, as Jeremiah and the Prophets foretold, Messiah chose 12 new National Elders (12 Apostles) and established a New and Different Covenant with the Faithful Remnant of Biological Israel and with all of Spiritual Israel (Jew & Gentile into one New People). The Torah that was inscribed on Tablets on the Former defiled Horeb Covenant, is now forever inscribed on the hearts of all of God's Spiritual Israel. And to seal this fact God's Finger was again present before all Israel (Fleshly & Spiritual) on Pentecost 30 AD to reveal all Truth to Messiah's Apostles as was promised...and to fill all 120 with this same inscribing Spirit.
Thus the debate between Church and Israel is foolish to me.........The Church has always been Israel and not all who are by blood Hebrew can be called Israel......for Israel is the Chosen Covenant People of God.....and only Spiritual Israel (Jew & Gentile Nazaraeans) under the New Messianic Covenant of Jesus of Nazareth are that People.
Has the "Church" replaced "Israel"? No. How can the Church of God replace the Israel of God, when from the beginning at Sinai, these have been One and the Same People. The Church is She who was engaged at Sinai and gave birth to Messiah and Her other children the Dragon hates. The Church is the Bride of God in the Pentateuch, the Prophets and the Writings....She is the Bride awaiting Her Lord and God's return. She is all those who have been faithful to the foreknown summons of God, who are foreknown and have been foreseen to dwell immortally in the New Jerusalem of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
So do you see why I see the argument as foolish? It seems to be based upon a false premise, and thus leads to various false arguments and conclusions. Though Covenants between God and His Bride have been changed, though His Bride has become dirty with Her errors...She was not rejected but reclaimed and renewed by His Loving kindness, and is maturing and being washed in His own blood. She is being made ready, pure and dressed in White for Her Marriage to Her Husband: The God of Israel Incarnate. this is the Eschatology of the Scripture and God's People....well that is until "Christendom" was declared when Constantine became a Christian and His Son declared the Religion of State to be the Imperial Church of the recognized 5 Patriarchates within the Empire of the Two Romes. Then a New Paradigm was in effect and Church identity and Eschatology shifted to a Imperially PC A-Millenialism which redefined dialectics, exegetics and doctrine.
One God/Messiah and One Covenant People/Bride since Sinai to the New Heavens and New Earth. One broken marriage contract, and one new marriage contract.....one love Affair between YHVH and His Bride Israel.
In Christ,
Rev. Kenneth W. Huffman
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
Ken,
For one of the first times, I am in full agreement with you! What I don't understand is why you consider this view to be different from amillennialism.
For one of the first times, I am in full agreement with you! What I don't understand is why you consider this view to be different from amillennialism.
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
Greetings,
Please read my last post on Matthew 24, it has it's place in this debate too.
Thanks,
Rev. Ken Huffman
Please read my last post on Matthew 24, it has it's place in this debate too.
Thanks,
Rev. Ken Huffman
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
Greetings,
I am not sure why the debate. God's Church has always been the "elect" of Israel. From Horeb on, the Assemly of Saints has been the true remnant or elect....according to the Tanakh and the New Covenant Scriptures. All who are members of the Predestined one (Messiah) are the Isreal of God. Those of Hebrew extraction (Native/Natural Branches) as well as those of Non-Hebrew extraction (Foreign/Wild Branches) are now One New Humanity in the New Covenant Kingdom of God in Messiah. The Church has not replaced Israel, the Church has always been the Israel of God with God himself (Messiah) as her bridegroom.
Now as for eschatology.......Historic Premillenialism of the Apostolic Church and the later 5th century Classic A-Millenialism both hold to a final 7 year tribulation period and Antichrist. Both expect a final return of carnal Israel to her God and Messiah Jesus of Nazareth. At this return, Christ will come and so too the Resurrection from the dead. As to what happens thereafter , well that is disputed. But Steve Gregg is not a Classical A-Millenialist, but an inconsistant (partial) praeterist.........and as he says, a positive A-Millenialist....known as a Post-Millenialist.
Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Historic Protestants have all held, whether A or Pre millenialists to this belief and exegesis......only praeterism (full/consistant or partial/inconsistant) denies a return of carnal Israel and the Resuurection connection, or that the tribulation and antichrist are to precede the physical return of Christ. These are FACTS.
in Christ,
Rev. Ken Huffman
PS
Steve's exegetics and eschatology are just as modern as the Darbyist forms of Premillenialism, and he full well knows it. Both Modern Protestant Praeterism and Modern Protestant Dispensational Premillenialism descend from counter reformation Jesuit scholars seeking to defeat Protestant and Reformed A-Millenuial identification of the Papacy with Babylon and the Pope himself with the expected Antichrist. It was when these Roman Catholic theories were officially banned as novelties by Rome that they were later picked up and modified for Protestant/Reformed use and promulgation.
I have personally debated Steve at his GCS in McMinnville, Oregon and on air from Corvallis, Oregon, and these facts were discussed. I was a Classical A-Millenialist and became a Historic Premillenialist during my seminary days because of the Bible and the study of the Church Fathers and Second Temple jewish beliefs. I reject praeterism as well as dispensationalism as post reformation novelties and their misuse and manipulation of Scripture, the fathers and Historic Facts to suets their "spiritual" understandings of the word of God. No one held to Dispensationalism or Praeterism until the Reformation, and then it was the Romanists.....now it is the Reformed and Evangelical Protestants. weird.
I am not sure why the debate. God's Church has always been the "elect" of Israel. From Horeb on, the Assemly of Saints has been the true remnant or elect....according to the Tanakh and the New Covenant Scriptures. All who are members of the Predestined one (Messiah) are the Isreal of God. Those of Hebrew extraction (Native/Natural Branches) as well as those of Non-Hebrew extraction (Foreign/Wild Branches) are now One New Humanity in the New Covenant Kingdom of God in Messiah. The Church has not replaced Israel, the Church has always been the Israel of God with God himself (Messiah) as her bridegroom.
Now as for eschatology.......Historic Premillenialism of the Apostolic Church and the later 5th century Classic A-Millenialism both hold to a final 7 year tribulation period and Antichrist. Both expect a final return of carnal Israel to her God and Messiah Jesus of Nazareth. At this return, Christ will come and so too the Resurrection from the dead. As to what happens thereafter , well that is disputed. But Steve Gregg is not a Classical A-Millenialist, but an inconsistant (partial) praeterist.........and as he says, a positive A-Millenialist....known as a Post-Millenialist.
Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Historic Protestants have all held, whether A or Pre millenialists to this belief and exegesis......only praeterism (full/consistant or partial/inconsistant) denies a return of carnal Israel and the Resuurection connection, or that the tribulation and antichrist are to precede the physical return of Christ. These are FACTS.
in Christ,
Rev. Ken Huffman
PS
Steve's exegetics and eschatology are just as modern as the Darbyist forms of Premillenialism, and he full well knows it. Both Modern Protestant Praeterism and Modern Protestant Dispensational Premillenialism descend from counter reformation Jesuit scholars seeking to defeat Protestant and Reformed A-Millenuial identification of the Papacy with Babylon and the Pope himself with the expected Antichrist. It was when these Roman Catholic theories were officially banned as novelties by Rome that they were later picked up and modified for Protestant/Reformed use and promulgation.
I have personally debated Steve at his GCS in McMinnville, Oregon and on air from Corvallis, Oregon, and these facts were discussed. I was a Classical A-Millenialist and became a Historic Premillenialist during my seminary days because of the Bible and the study of the Church Fathers and Second Temple jewish beliefs. I reject praeterism as well as dispensationalism as post reformation novelties and their misuse and manipulation of Scripture, the fathers and Historic Facts to suets their "spiritual" understandings of the word of God. No one held to Dispensationalism or Praeterism until the Reformation, and then it was the Romanists.....now it is the Reformed and Evangelical Protestants. weird.
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
Just for those new to the debate between Ken (Priestly1) and me, let me say that he is not always clear in his own mind about what he represents to be my beliefs...nor are his historical summaries or Greek and Hebrew exegesis safe to accept without checking. Ken gets a little enthusiastic at times, and speaks in an authoritative manner on things that are often possible to refute upon the slightest effort at research. However, sometimes his facts are correct. I would simply encourage readers to check first; believe after. Same with the things you hear me say.
Re: Debate: Church/Israel
Ken wrote (and Steve agrees?):
So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are out of this church?Yet I hold that the "Israel of God" began on Pentacost 1450 BC......at Mount Horeb in Midian (Sinai). This People was and is the Covenant People...