Alcohol & Welfare Programs: Topics on today's show

[jesusrules777]

With regard to the topic of alcohol today on the show, there is another perspective in terms of the non Believers who are listening to the show. They are listening to see if Christians are going to enforce rules, judge and control them. If they hear Steve condemn alcohol, this would be yet another reason for them to avoid following Jesus.

Our culture is filled with "shoulds and shouldn'ts" which is exactly the reason so many churches today are vacant. Grace is not about rules, but about relationship.

I used to know an alcoholic believer who actually lied to his children about the wine in the Bible being non alcoholic because he was terrifed of alcohol and his lack of ability to refrain from getting drunk.

One of the callers today talked about alcohol being a drug, what about caffiene? Does that mean Steve should advise people to refrain from lattes because they could become addicted? That wouldn't go over very well in Seattle where there is a Starbucks on every corner.

If Steve begins to advise against every substance that humans could abuse, the only people who would tune in, would be legalistic, self righteous church folks.

What about the health benefits to alcohol? I knew a Christian diabetic who had stomach issues and the only thing that helped him was one glass of wine a night. When other believers judged him for this, his health was actually hindered, due to this "need to control" his choices.

Doesn't the Bible tell us that " it is not what goes into the mouth that makes us unclean, but rather what comes out of the heart?" If we attempt to control other Believers by advising them what they should be putting in their mouth, what is coming from OUR heart?

To the caller who said that people should be allowed to discriminately give to the poor that we judge to be worthy, where is that in the Bible? Who are we to judge why a woman continues to get pregant and needing government assistance? Why do we assume that she is doing this on purpose to collect welfare? Why aren't we holding the men who got her pregnant accountable? What about the men who should have been supporting her children, but instead spent the money on themselves? We need to be extremely careful NOT to judge the poor and assume it is their choice. What about the woman who is raped continually and impregnated repeatedly by men who used her and left? Would we then judge her as not being worthy of assistance? What about her children, don't they deserve provision? Is it somehow their fault this happened to them? It is sad the Lord has to use the government to provide for the poor, because believers feel they need to control, judge and decide if a poor person is worthy of provision. If believers would step up and voluntarily give to everyone who is in need, the government wouldn't need to carry this load. Doesn't the Bible say, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone?" Do those of us judging the poor have any sin in our own lives? Perhaps our sin has not caused us to be poor or have multiple children, but our pride, judgementalism and arrogance doesn't make us any better or worthy of provision, moreso than a poor sinner.

Remember, in the Bible when the Believers actually sold their land, houses, etc. and gave to EVERYONE who was in need? It doesn't say that they sold their property and then sat on their judgment seat deciding who was worthy of provision. Simply their "need" was what qualified them. Perhaps there were single moms with lots of kids, or even people drinking alcohol, but they were in need and therefore they were worthy to be helped. Immature Believers and non-Believers are all created by God and therefore deserve provision, even if they are behaving in ways we judge them for doing.

Fortunately, our government programs only check to be sure that people are truly in need, rather than scrutinizing, criticizing and refusing help based upon legalistic judgements.

To the caller who said that tax dollars are going to daycares, why don't Believers offer to babysit children for free, so daycares aren't necessary? Why are we so judgmental towards mothers who have children and have been abandoned by the other parent? Rather than throwing stones, shouldn't we be reaching out to help her? Believers are against abortion but when women choose life, they are accused of doing it on purpose for money? Wow, it seems that we are placing women in no win positions. If they are raped and impregnated, Believers say they should choose life, but shouldn't need any help with provision because the pregnancy is somehow their fault? If it weren't for the government agencies helping the women who choose life to keep their children alive, there are many children who would have died, even though their mothers chose NOT to abort them. Our country is filled with children who have been abandoned because mothers chose life and then after their five years of government assistance was up, they couldn't provide for them any longer. How many Believers are refusing to help these mothers, because they have judged them? Guess who pays for foster parents to provide for all these abandoned children? The government has to step up and pay people to raise the children that the church refuses to help stay with their biological parent.

[steve]

No one on the program was saying that Christians should be judgmental toward the needy. However, it is the Christian's duty to steward God's resources in the way that best serves the Master's interests. Stewards who do not use discrimination will soon find they have wasted much of their Master's resources. The selling and giving of which the Book of Acts speaks, had to do with supporting the poor of the Christian community—not of the whole society. We are told, of that particular company, that there were none among them who had need because of this policy (Acts 4:34).

Even among the poor saints, some are and some are not to receive the regular support of the church. There are widows "indeed", who, largely due to their life choices, are to be supported by the church, as opposed to those who, because of certain circumstances of their lives, apparently, should not be supported with church funds (1 Tim.5:3-13). Likewise, those who refuse to work, are not to be supported (2 Thess.3:10). Even among those who are legitimately poor, and who would be proper recipients of charity, there are priorities. We are to do good to all, but especially those of the household of faith (Gal.6:10). A Christian, given freedom to direct his own charitable giving, can make choices according to biblical stewardship principles. A government agency can not be trusted to follow such guidelines.

If we should happen upon a needy person, and have the wherewithal to help them, we might well extend compassion without inquiry into the "legitimacy" of their need or their "worthiness" to be assisted. The Good Samaritan did not inquire into these matters. Spontaneous generosity is appropriate—even toward unbelievers and sinful folk—when special needs are encountered. However, when it comes to making policies of long-term support—which is another way of saying we are underwriting the recipient's lifestyle—the early Christians did follow policies based on legitimacy of need and the lifestyles of the beneficiaries.

[brody196]

Government welfare programs are grossly taken advantage of in my town. I know of cases that would make your head spin. One in particular involves folks who buy food with their EBT card, only to turn around and sell the food for cash to buy dope, beer, and party supplies. Just because someone claims to be poor, doesn't mean anything. Everyone should prayerfully steward their money in a way that glorifies God.

[Paidion]

The following seems relevant to the subject at hand:

Give to everyone who asks, and do not ask anything back. For the Father wants everyone to be given something from the gracious gifts he himself provides. How fortunate is the one who gives according to the commandment, for he is without fault. Woe to the one who receives. For if anyone receives because he is in need, he is without fault. But the one who receives without a need will have to testify why he received what he did, and for what purpose. And he will be thrown in prison and interrogated about what he did; and he will not get out until he pays back every last cent. For it has also been said concerning this: "Let your gift to charity sweat in your hands until you know to whom to give it." — The Didache 1:5,6, quoted from "Lost Scriptures" by Bart D. Ehrman © 2003 by Oxford University Press.

[jriccitelli]

Whoever wants to send me all their money, I will honestly and personally put it into the hands of needy persons, I am asking everyone who wants to obey the Law of Christ (If this is what you think the Law of Christ means) to send me all their money.

[jesusrules777]

We need to be careful about judging the sins of the poor as we are not walking in their shoes and therefore not able to understand their motives. What about the motives of Believers who refuse to give to the poor due to their own greed and yet are claiming it is because of some sin they see in the life of this poor person? What about the sin of refusing to help someone in need? How many believers will be told by Jesus, "when I was in need, you refused to give to me."

Are we really that ignorant as to believe that we have the ability to play God and decide which people truly have Jesus living inside of them? Does a person who buys beer and dope instead of food NOT have Jesus inside of them? How do we know this, are we judging them by their behavior while having NO idea what is in their heart? Isn't the greater question, what is in OUR heart that would cause us to hoard our money and call it "stewardship?"

In terms of the people in Acts, the Bible doesn't specifically say that they didn't help certain poor people based upon their judgements of their behavior. How do we know that a woman who is on welfare for having multiple children isn't a widow? The Bible is extremely clear with regard to the command to give to the poor based upon their need, not their actions.

If God used a donkey to communicate, he can certainly use the government to provide for people that legalistic Believers have decided aren't worthy of being helped. I wouldn't want to be in the position of ANY Believer who has to stand before God and give account for all their wrong assumptions about why certain poor people didn't deserve their help. God just may remove money from Believers who are sitting in judgment with regard to the outward behavior of poor folks, while ignoring the self righteousness in their own heart.

Why do so many Believers think they are being good stewards of their money when they have no problem giving to ministries who are manipulating people and using the money for their own benefits instead of providing for the poor? Could it be that giving to the poor doesn't give them any kind of recognition or free book, so they twist Scripture to say they don't have to give to these people? Why are ministries getting richer and the government getting poorer? Why are ministries taking money from ignorant Believers who are NOT being good stewards of God's money and then refusing to pay the government the taxes that every other business in America has to pay? Why do people waste God's money by supporting ministers who are living wasteful, overindulgent lifestyles while many of God's children can't even afford healthcare? Why are ministries charging money for everything from counseling to hearing music? Isn't that discrimination towards the poor? Do we really wonder why God has had no other choice than to provide for His children through government programs?

Perhaps instead of focusing on whether or not to drink alcohol, coffee, certain foods, or only giving to certain poor people, we should all examine our own hearts and ask the question of why. What is it in our heart that would want to abuse alcohol? What is it in our heart that wants to judge people as not having Jesus inside them and therefore NOT deserving our provision for their needs? What is it in our hearts that will even twist Scripture to justify our own agenda when it comes to God's money? What is it in our heart that would cause us to medicate our pain with anything or anyone other than God? What is it in our own heart that would cause us to lack compassion, love and generosity for humanity who is still caught in their own sin like us? What is wrong in our heart that would cause us to feel that we are somehow better and more deserving of provision based upon our judgement of others?

If we know of someone who is selling their government food assistance to buy beer and dope, what is it in our own heart, that feels superior to them and therefore in a position to judge their actions, rather than bringing them the food they need to eat? What is it in our own heart, that causes us to believe we somehow know the reason they are medicating with alcohol and drugs, rather than visiting them and sharing Jesus and His love?

Our hearts are empty, deceived and wounded. The heart of a person with no money isn't any different from the heart of a person with money as money is only a temporary need while on this earth. The heart of a person with money may in fact have even more sin than one without money as the love of money is indeed the ROOT of ALL evil.

[steve]

We need to be careful about judging the sins of the poor as we are not walking in their shoes and therefore not able to understand their motives.

I'm afraid that I will have to stand by what I said in my previous post, since it was merely a summary of what the scripture says on this subject, whereas much of your concerns are hypothetical. "What if" someone fails to give because they are greedy? Well, that is a very different subject from that being discussed here (at least in my posts). We are discussing the proper stewardship considerations for those who are in fact desiring to give (a different category from that which you are discussing). That there are people who never give is a sad reality—but not one related to this topic.

What about the motives of Believers who refuse to give to the poor due to their own greed and yet are claiming it is because of some sin they see in the life of this poor person? What about the sin of refusing to help someone in need? How many believers will be told by Jesus, "when I was in need, you refused to give to me."

No one here would suggest that people should be disingenuous in the excuses they provide for not giving to relieve some particular need. Most of us have limited finances, cannot respond to the request of every cause or individual, and must make choices about the wisest use of God's resources. We are not discussing the sinful greed of evil hearts here—unless you are saying that being a discriminating steward is the same thing as having an evil heart. There was a steward castigated by his master for "wasting" his master's goods (Luke 16:1). Some of us would not wish to thus displease our Master by the squandering of the little with which He has entrusted us.

Are we really that ignorant as to believe that we have the ability to play God and decide which people truly have Jesus living inside of them? Does a person who buys beer and dope instead of food NOT have Jesus inside of them? How do we know this, are we judging them by their behavior while having NO idea what is in their heart?

We are not able to see what is in the heart. However, we are required to make judgments in our stewardship. People's behavior is all that we have to go on with reference to the wisdom, or lack thereof, of our becoming their sponsors. Since God will use people's works (and nothing else, as far as the scriptures tell us) as the basis of judging them, He must think that works are a pretty reliable indicator of what is in the heart. If a person has a good heart, but is living a sinful lifestyle (if such a thing can be conceived as a possibility), he should not complain that those whose finances are devoted to promoting the kingdom of God are not convinced that supporting his sinful lifestyle would be a choice consonant with that goal.

Isn't the greater question, what is in OUR heart that would cause us to hoard our money and call it "stewardship?"

It may be a great question (if we are, in fact, hoarding and calling this "stewardship")...but it is not a question relevant to the points originally raised.

In terms of the people in Acts, the Bible doesn't specifically say that they didn't help certain poor people based upon their judgements of their behavior. How do we know that a woman who is on welfare for having multiple children isn't a widow? The Bible is extremely clear with regard to the command to give to the poor based upon their need, not their actions.

The distribution of Christian funds helped those in the Christian community. Unlike today, the early church did not regard a person as belonging to the Christian community if they were living in sin.

If you would read the scriptures that I provided before responding, you would find that the qualifications for a widow seeking church support are very exacting—she must have been the wife of one man, have washed the saints' feet, have reared children, etc. I am not the one creating qualifications here. I regard Paul's writings as scripture.

If God used a donkey to communicate, he can certainly use the government to provide for people that legalistic Believers have decided aren't worthy of being helped.

Hmmmm. Having a hard time seeing the aptness of your analogy. Certainly God can use anything. However, it would be a shame if, despite the presence of a Christian community that is charged with speaking prophetically to the world, God had to resort to the use of talking donkeys to speak His message. Similarly with the other responsibilities given to the church: If the church is present, and charged with the duty, there should be no need for the government to care for the church's poor.

I wouldn't want to be in the position of ANY Believer who has to stand before God and give account for all their wrong assumptions about why certain poor people didn't deserve their help. God just may remove money from Believers who are sitting in judgment with regard to the outward behavior of poor folks, while ignoring the self righteousness in their own heart.

Why do you bring up "self-righteousness in their hearts," when you have previously made the case that we can't know what is in a person's heart? Is it your opinion that a needy person can live a life of immorality and deceit without revealing thereby what is in their heart—but, by contrast, you can know of the evil in the heart of a Christian who, ostensibly, is using discretion in his stewardship? If you are so aware of what is in another person's heart, why do you insist that no one else has such discernment?

Why do so many Believers think they are being good stewards of their money when they have no problem giving to ministries who are manipulating people and using the money for their own benefits instead of providing for the poor? Could it be that giving to the poor doesn't give them any kind of recognition or free book, so they twist Scripture to say they don't have to give to these people?

I am not sure which believers you have in mind. Some people do foolishly support ministries that do not make good use of their money, as you suggest. I agree that this is a bad stewardship. But then, you have been suggesting all along that we should give without using discretion, without regard for how the recipient uses the gifts—so you can hardly fault people for doing the very thing that you recommend. My position is that we should not underwrite sinful behavior—whether it is the behavior of a self-indulgent drunkard or that of a self-indulgent television evangelist. You seem to think we should support one kind of sin, without judgment, but not support the other. Is there some consistent basis underlying your recommendations here?

Why are ministries getting richer and the government getting poorer? Why are ministries taking money from ignorant Believers who are NOT being good stewards of God's money and then refusing to pay the government the taxes that every other business in America has to pay? Why do people waste God's money by supporting ministers who are living wasteful, overindulgent lifestyles while many of God's children can't even afford healthcare? Why are ministries charging money for everything from counseling to hearing music? Isn't that discrimination towards the poor? Do we really wonder why God has had no other choice than to provide for His children through government programs?

It seems that your concerns are all over the map here. Is the government getting poorer? Perhaps it is due to government mismanagement of funds. Most of us are expected to be able to balance a checkbook and live within our means—but the government has not learned these basic principles. Perhaps this has contributed to a shortage of funds for necessary things.

Your assumption that "God has had no other choice than to provide for His children through government programs" is not obviously correct. There are other avenues of potential provision for the poor. However, when the government covers the tab, the need is covered, rendering other sources of aid superfluous. If the government were to do something radically different—like provide only the services it legally has the right to provide (whether we define those as the ones constitutionally mandated or those biblically mandated)—then we might find that the government would not be getting poorer, and other agencies and individuals would have to step up to the task of helping the poor.

Perhaps instead of focusing on whether or not to drink alcohol, coffee, certain foods, or only giving to certain poor people, we should all examine our own hearts and ask the question of why. What is it in our heart that would want to abuse alcohol? What is it in our heart that wants to judge people as not having Jesus inside them and therefore NOT deserving our provision for their needs? What is it in our hearts that will even twist Scripture to justify our own agenda when it comes to God's money? What is it in our heart that would cause us to medicate our pain with anything or anyone other than God? What is it in our own heart that would cause us to lack compassion, love and generosity for humanity who is still caught in their own sin like us? What is wrong in our heart that would cause us to feel that we are somehow better and more deserving of provision based upon our judgement of others?

I had been under the mistaken notion, until this point, that you were attempting to interact with my points on the subject under discussion. Since I don't recognize myself in any of the above descriptive behaviors (behaviors, incidentally, by which you seem willing to judge other people's hearts) I will have to assume that you are not interacting here with me or with my thoughts.

If we know of someone who is selling their government food assistance to buy beer and dope, what is it in our own heart, that feels superior to them and therefore in a position to judge their actions, rather than bringing them the food they need to eat? What is it in our own heart, that causes us to believe we somehow know the reason they are medicating with alcohol and drugs, rather than visiting them and sharing Jesus and His love?

I don't remember anyone here saying they were better than anyone else. However, some people do, and some people don't, squander everything that comes into their hands upon wasteful living. The prodigal son's father was more than willing to help his son, upon his return to his proper place. However, when the son was suffering in the distant land, due to his wasteful behavior, we do not read of his father sending him care packages to support his self-destructive habits. In fact, it was the fact that this boy had to face the misery brought upon him by his sinful choices that is said to have brought him to his senses—and, ultimately, back to his father.

The question is not one of our knowing "the reason they are medicating with alcohol and drugs." Nor is it a question of whether we should visit them and share Jesus' love with them. We cannot always say why some people commit criminal acts, but it is their actions (not their reasons) that place them in a class requiring certain censures and penalties. I don't know why anyone spends his money on drugs and alcohol (and not all who do so have the same reasons for doing so), but it is the fact that he does so that tells me that there are other poor people whose actions it would be wiser for me to sponsor.

Our hearts are empty, deceived and wounded. The heart of a person with no money isn't any different from the heart of a person with money as money is only a temporary need while on this earth. The heart of a person with money may in fact have even more sin than one without money as the love of money is indeed the ROOT of ALL evil.

True, but very far afield of the subject we have been discussing here.

[jesusrules777]

Matthew 5:42
Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Proverbs 22:9
Blessed are those who are generous, because they feed the poor.
Proverbs 19:17
If you help the poor, you are lending to the Lord and he will repay you!
James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Matthew 25:35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ ..

Here are some great Scriptures to focus on with regard to giving to the poor without playing God in their lives and attempting to determine the condition of their heart. I'll post more shortly

Steve, I'm sad my previous post didn't meet your standards in terms of relevancy, and other criticisms you had with regard to the content. I assure you that my motives were, however, coming from a place of love and concern for the poor and needy among us. My attempts to communicate this concern were apparently not organized in the manner you would have preferred, however, they came from a deep passion for EVERY human who is in need as there are No Scriptures which tell us to discriminate against certain poor people based upon their outward behavior. God looks at our hearts, and our motives, rather than our communication style. We need to be careful when criticizing someone's way of communicating as it can actually blind us from the Truth of their message. Attempting to discredit a sibling in the Lord by criticizing the format of their communication isn't Biblical, nor is it displaying love and humility. How does the Bible say we are known as Christians? By our love, NOT our criticisms of each other's writing styles, or judging the poor and needy as not worthy to be helped.

[jesusrules777]

brody196,

1 John 3:17
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27

[steve]

jesusrules777,

My main complaint about your posts is not concerning how you communicate, but how you judge others' hearts so uncharitably, without requiring any evidence against them. This may be a blind spot of yours, which is the reason I attempt to point it out to you (something you apparently don't take too kindly to).

There are many scriptures that tell us to be careful of our speech, because it is by our speech that others must, of necessity, discern our thoughts. If you do not wish to be corrected when you misspeak or when you exhibit hypocrisy (judging others for what you are yourself in the act of doing) then this forum is not a good place to participate, because people here are interested in the truth, and will cross examine any claims to the same that are posted here. Mostly, people will assume that you are saying what you mean. Though there are some people, perhaps, incapable of saying what they mean, those folks would be wise to avoid posting on the internet where others will see what they are saying (and might conclude that they meant what they said, and respond to it accordingly). It is Jesus who said we will be judged by what we say.

I presume that you would view your comments as truth. If not, then they should not be posted. If so, then a concern for truth (more than for the mere opportunity to ventilate a litany of pet peeves) would cause you to welcome correction where your statements fall short of being true. The statements of your last post (e.g., "No Scriptures which tell us to discriminate against certain poor people based upon their outward behavior") make it plain that either you have not read the scriptures I presented in my first response to you (a very strange thing to neglect before answering), or else that you read them and ignored their content because they went against your position. It cannot be argued that your position (over agaist the one you are criticizing) enjoys the best scriptural support. It should be obvious that we all accept the truth of the scriptures that you just presented—they do not contradict anything I have written to you.

By the way, is the reason you cut off the quote from Matthew 25, where you did, that the next line contradicts your position and supports what I have been saying to you from the beginning?

If you are a disciple, then you should be a learner. Let the word of God teach you, and correct you, where necessary. That is what we are here to do—not to defend our poorly-thought-out, off-the-cuff statements against all valid correction.

I have responded kindly and honestly to the points you raised. May I request the courtesy of your doing the same thing with the points I raised to you?