Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

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robbyyoung
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Tue May 26, 2015 10:56 am

dizerner wrote:If you're going to unequivocally claim all authorities are from God, you are also going to have to unequivocally claim rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior.
Hi dizerner,

This is a common sense truth for the reader to distinguish good behaviour, opposed to those who rather choose to do evil (vs.3) in a society. Paul hammers home the point in vs. 3&4 to obey civil laws meant for the good of all or else BE FEARFUL of the wrath to come. Christians who exercise civil disobedience, for the cause of Christ, ARE NOT exercising evil behaviour, but, will most likely suffer for the cause of Christ, but not always. This would fall under being persecuted for the cause of Christ, He does have a plan, where our good would be evil spoken of and used for His purposes.
dizerner wrote:But the latter is patently and demonstrably false.
This societal truth, from God, is in no way false. Lawbreakers and law abiding citizens DO NOT have the same fear, for conscience sake, in a society. Sin corrupts all areas of life, even The Christian Life, but do we oppose all the spiritual truths regarding how we ought to live? No.
dizerner wrote:Elsewhere we are warned against an authority that will set himself up as above all other gods and demand worship. Do you think we should be in subjection to it? Because Revelations tells us that means damnation.
Well I don't believe in the futurist interpretation of what you are eluding to, however, civil disobedience would be exercised, just as the 1st Century Believers have shown and taught us. Again, this would fall under being persecuted for the cause of Christ, He does have a plan, where our good would be evil spoken of and used for His purposes.

IMO, Paul gives no wiggle room to suggest that God isn't the author of what constitutes legitmate authority in the world.

God Bless.

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robbyyoung
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Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Tue May 26, 2015 11:04 am

TheEditor wrote:I think you're being a bit heavy-handed with this application Robby. We obey God as ruler. If the "higher powers" demanded all Christians submit to incarceration, should we show up and be duly processed (they being God's sword and all), or do we "flee" from such, per Jesus instructions?

Regards, Brenden.
Hi Brenden,

I pretty much answered this when replying to dizerner. This type of Christian Persecution has nothing to do with being a good or bad citizen. God's instructions are to be followed, whatever they may be, for this type is suffering for the cause of Christ, and His purposes will come to pass. Romans 13 is offering a societal truth which is authored by God Himself, evil that persist in government, will be dealt with by God, like everthing else.

God Bless.

thrombomodulin
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by thrombomodulin » Tue May 26, 2015 7:28 pm

Robby,

I don't understand what view your affirming:

Question #1: Are you affirming that some rulers are ordained by God, and that others are not?

Question #2: Are you saying that we are only obliged to obey rules that we think are good rules, and we are free (before God) to resist a ruler wherenever we disagree with a rule?

Rom 13:2 says "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation". How do you square that with your affirmation of the validity of civil disobedience?

Paidion,

I understand your answer to the Question #1 for Robby would be "yes". This leads me to ask if you would agree that we are more or less completely lacking in having any standard at all by which we can discern what rulers are in what category? It seems that rulers, if they have are obliged to honor any code of conduct at all, have one that is entirely different than everyone else - at least in the standard revitalized divine right of kings view (RDRK). It's doesn't seem to be enough to say, as Robby has, that we have to use "common sense". The scope of authority claimed by rulers is simply far to broad for that.

Example on one side of the spectrum:

Robby noted:
robbyyoung wrote: Clearly when Paul was writing Romans The Church was under persecution by both Roman and Jewish authorities to some extent. Yet Paul insists that God is THE AUTHORITY over what He established to rule over the affairs of men.
Why not extrapolate that, despite the fact that ISIS persecutes Christians, we could reasonably conclude that this situation parallels Paul's. Paul seems to say rebelling against Caesar is rebelling against God (13:2). Why not say rebelling against ISIS is tantamount to rebelling against God? Who is to say that God isn't working all things together for His purposes, through in his use of the sword of ISIS?

Example on the other side of the spectrum:

In the USA, as is typical of modern governments, virtually every action under the sun is regulated. This is done by either outlawing the action entirely, or coercion through the tax code. Given the encyclopedic volumes of regulations, there are countless cases to pick from where our rulers punish the actions of their citizens that are good. I'll give an example that was popular recently in the USA: I think it would be a good thing, that I could do for my neighbors, to become and entrepreneur and offer health insurance plans that exclude coverage for services people won't use, or that they find to be morally objectionable (e.g. abortion, contraceptives, etc,.). But, alas, this is against the law, and Caesar's would punish those who endeavor to do this particular good thing. Caesar is a cause for fear in doing many good things. We could conclude that he should not be reckoned as a divinely appointed authority, and the Christian has no obligation to obey him.

Example of secession:

In the 1770's some of King George's subjects in North America rebelled. At least until King George relinquished his claims in North America, Christians should have considered that participation in the secession was rebellion against a divinely appointed authority. If history had been otherwise, and England never relinquished its claims of authority over the US, then we would be obliged to dissolve the USA government and return to rule by London. (i.e. a proper view would regard the rebellion of the 1770's as an ongoing usurpation of rightful authority). In more general terms, it is the problem of which person somehow establishes the right to subject others to his rule? If England revived the claim, why would it be invalid? or would it be?

Given the broad scope of government, it's easy to justify whatever conclusion you want to reach. Therefore, in practice, no obligations are being imposed on anyone through Romans 13.

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robbyyoung
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Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Tue May 26, 2015 8:36 pm

thrombomodulin wrote:Robby,

I don't understand what view your affirming:

Question #1: Are you affirming that some rulers are ordained by God, and that others are not?
Hi Pete,

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Dan 2:20-22 ] "And he changeth the times and the seasons; He removeth kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding. He revealeth the deep and secret things; he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him."

Or how about Dan 4: 13-17 "I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven. He cried aloud, and said thus….. This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

And let's not forget Yeshua's testimony confirming the O.T. scriptures!

Jn 19: 10-11 "Then saith Pilate unto him: Speakest thou not unto me? Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered:Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above. Therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

Lastly, let's examine another Apostle's understanding!

I Pt 2: 13-17 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme, or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."

Now for the remainder of your question regarding rulers WHO WERE NOT ordained, note the following:

Hosea 8:3-4 "Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off."

Therefore, I hope I clarified my statement, "THE INSTITUTION of government is what is ordained by God, not necessarily the Human Beings occupy the seat." in affirming both views to your question #1.
thrombomodulin wrote:Question #2: Are you saying that we are only obliged to obey rules that we think are good rules, and we are free (before God) to resist a ruler wherenever we disagree with a rule?
I don't know what I could have said to prompt this confusion??? We should disagree with a law at odds with God's supreme authority and commands. And if we suffer persecution for it, so be it.
thrombomodulin wrote:Rom 13:2 says "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation". How do you square that with your affirmation of the validity of civil disobedience?
Come on Pete... Common sense must prevail here. God said, the institution and ministers will enact decrees that promote good behavior in a society. Those who resist the good should fear the wrath to come. For God is good. Those ministers who do evil are dealt with by God Himself, by the many means in which He is able to do so. Christians ARE NOT to resist the powers that promote good behaviors in society. The Apostles exercised civil disobedience by refusing to NOT preach the gospel when told to stop. They were to obey God rather than man.

God Bless.

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TheEditor
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by TheEditor » Tue May 26, 2015 10:19 pm

Am I mistaken in thinking that when Peter penned these words that Nero was the Emperor? If so, that makes one scratch their head now doesn't it?

Regards, Brenden.
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robbyyoung
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Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 27, 2015 5:30 am

TheEditor wrote:Am I mistaken in thinking that when Peter penned these words that Nero was the Emperor? If so, that makes one scratch their head now doesn't it?

Regards, Brenden.
Hi Brenden,

I think you are responding emotionally rather than scripturally. You know quite well that Peter, Yeshua, and every other testimony, concerning the fact, says to Honour and Love ALL MEN, not just the ones who are nice to you. For If you don't, you are know better off than they are. Who your enemy is irrelevant to where your attitude and heart should be. Peter says, "Honour ALL men", He then affirms, YES - The King too!

You see Peter need not "scratch his head" in confusion, for he knew quite well what the O.T. said about who rules over the affairs of men. These offices, and most likely, the people occupying them was given by God Himself, whether we understand His purposes or not.

God Bless.

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robbyyoung
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Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 27, 2015 8:46 am

thrombomodulin wrote: Robby noted:
robbyyoung wrote: Clearly when Paul was writing Romans The Church was under persecution by both Roman and Jewish authorities to some extent. Yet Paul insists that God is THE AUTHORITY over what He established to rule over the affairs of men.
Why not extrapolate that, despite the fact that ISIS persecutes Christians, we could reasonably conclude that this situation parallels Paul's. Paul seems to say rebelling against Caesar is rebelling against God (13:2). Why not say rebelling against ISIS is tantamount to rebelling against God? Who is to say that God isn't working all things together for His purposes, through in his use of the sword of ISIS?
Hi Pete,

God HAS NOT changed His ways concerning how He judges nations and I'm sure you can search the scriptures concerning those passages . Of course ISIS is a tool being used against nations, as well as, any and all other conflicts in the world involving "nations". There should be no confusion, unless, you are at odds with what scripture teaches. Then of course confusion will be rampant when scripture is twisted to disenfranchise God from the responsibility HE SAID IS ALL HIS! Therefore, He said, "it is I" and the person at odds says, "Umm... No God, it's not you", and hence CONFUSION because no amount of emotional understanding erases the clear passages taught and understood by the ancients.

If a Christian join ranks with ISIS, then that Christian obliged himself to live by their rules that promotes good behavior IN THAT society. If a conflict arises between their rules and God's law, the Christian is to obey God rather than man.

We don't have to like it Pete, but Christians amongst all people, should be the least confused on these matters, because we believe God's Word, and The World doesn't, therefore, their confusion and fearful outlook concerning conflicts is easily understood. God is in control and we should take comfort in this, because "Though He slay me, yet will I still trust in Him!".

God Bless.

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TheEditor
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by TheEditor » Wed May 27, 2015 10:27 am

Hi Robby,

You're confusing me. You wrote these two seperate things:


Pete asked:

Robby,

I don't understand what view your affirming:

Question #1: Are you affirming that some rulers are ordained by God, and that others are not?


Robby answered:

Hi Pete,

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.


Robby replied to my "scratching head" comment:

You see Peter need not "scratch his head" in confusion, for he knew quite well what the O.T. said about who rules over the affairs of men. These offices, and most likely, the people occupying them was given by God Himself, whether we understand His purposes or not.

I'm lost. :?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 27, 2015 11:07 am

TheEditor wrote:Hi Robby,

You're confusing me. You wrote these two seperate things:


Pete asked:

Robby,

I don't understand what view your affirming:

Question #1: Are you affirming that some rulers are ordained by God, and that others are not?


Robby answered:

Hi Pete,

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.


Robby replied to my "scratching head" comment:

You see Peter need not "scratch his head" in confusion, for he knew quite well what the O.T. said about who rules over the affairs of men. These offices, and most likely, the people occupying them was given by God Himself, whether we understand His purposes or not.

I'm lost. :?

Regards, Brenden.
Hi Brenden,

Both realities are true and I gave scripture support to prove it.

Offices approved by God: Dan 2:20-22, Dan 4: 13-17, Jn 19: 10-11, and I Pt 2: 13-17
Offices approved by God but NOT the individuals: Hosea 8:3-4

God Bless.

thrombomodulin
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed May 27, 2015 11:24 am

Robby

I'm lost too. You say some rulers are not from God, yet you have not provided any way to discern who they are. How do I know if any given ruler has divine authority or not? If you want to go with OT precedence, that's fine. I'll complete that by asserting our identity test for a ruler should be whether or not they are anointed by a true prophet of God. It would also help this discussion if you could give some criteria by which we should decide when civil disobedience is justified and when it is not

Pete

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