Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

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robbyyoung
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 27, 2015 12:25 pm

thrombomodulin wrote:Robby

I'm lost too. You say some rulers are not from God, yet you have not provided any way to discern who they are. How do I know if any given ruler has divine authority or not? If you want to go with OT precedence, that's fine. I'll complete that by asserting our identity test for a ruler should be whether or not they are anointed by a true prophet of God. It would also help this discussion if you could give some criteria by which we should decide when civil disobedience is justified and when it is not

Pete
Hi Pete,

Oh my, well I guess I'm guilty of ineffective communication. Forgive me guys as I try to explain my understanding once more. Pete, it is unnecessary to agonize over who is and who is not holding a seat of authority sanctioned by God. The Christian has the advantage of knowing it's a possibility, but the instititution He established is to be honoured irregardless, for it is ultimately The Christian's responsibility to love, respect, and honor all people, to include those proclaiming to be our enemy. Government institutions exist by God's decree and the rules and laws that govern a society are meant to promote good behaviour and punish the bad in that society. Either way, Christians are, to the best of their ability, live peaceably in the society they find themselves in. When laws and rules begin to clash with God's commands we are to exercise civil disobedience, to the likes of what the 1st Century church has shown us, (such as; stop preaching in the name of Yeshua, and that order being totally ignored.) for we are to obey God rather than man and this may or may not cause persecution in our lives. If it does, well then to God be the glory!

God Bless.

thrombomodulin
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed May 27, 2015 6:35 pm

robbyyoung wrote: Oh my, well I guess I'm guilty of ineffective communication. Forgive me guys as I try to explain my understanding once more.
Thanks for your patience.
robbyyoung wrote:
Pete, it is unnecessary to agonize over who is and who is not holding a seat of authority sanctioned by God.
The Christian has the advantage of knowing it's a possibility, but the instititution He established is to be honoured irregardless
The trouble I have with this is that we are not called to honor some abstract idea about the nature of an institution. What we are to submit to, or not, is the actual and particular instances of those institutions, or more particularly the men that they are comprised of. If we disobey a legitimate ruler, we are rebelling against God. If we obey an invalid ruler we are wasting valuable time and effort, besides supporting the reign and wrongdoing of an impostor (e.g. consider that a solider who kills an enemy combatant who is serving a God ordained ruler, whilst the solider himself serves a ruler who was not ordained by God. That solider may be considered a hero in his home country for his victory, but the reality would be that he is a murderer).
robbyyoung wrote:
For it is ultimately The Christian's responsibility to love, respect, and honor all people, to include those proclaiming to be our enemy.
I have no disagreement here, but it is quite a different matter to say that we need to submit to and obey the arbitrary decrees that other men make.
robbyyoung wrote:
Government institutions exist by God's decree and the rules and laws that govern a society are meant to promote good behavior and punish the bad in that society.
Yes, all governments do that to some extent, and also do the opposite to some extent. It is normative that they do much less of the former, and much more of the latter.
robbyyoung wrote:
Either way, Christians are, to the best of their ability, live peaceably in the society they find themselves in.
I agree.
robbyyoung wrote:
When laws and rules begin to clash with God's commands we are to exercise civil disobedience, to the likes of what the 1st Century church has shown us, (such as; stop preaching in the name of Yeshua, and that order being totally ignored.) for we are to obey God rather than man and this may or may not cause persecution in our lives. If it does, well then to God be the glory!
Those are certainly valid exceptions which almost no Christian would disagree with. The question is how far do we go in considering what "clashes"? This leads to Question #3: Were the Israelite citizens under the rule of invalid authorities (Hosea 8:3-4) obliged to obey anything whatsoever from these illegitimate rulers?

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robbyyoung
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 27, 2015 8:24 pm

thrombomodulin wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:
Pete, it is unnecessary to agonize over who is and who is not holding a seat of authority sanctioned by God.
The Christian has the advantage of knowing it's a possibility, but the instititution He established is to be honoured irregardless
The trouble I have with this is that we are not called to honor some abstract idea about the nature of an institution. What we are to submit to, or not, is the actual and particular instances of those institutions, or more particularly the men that they are comprised of. If we disobey a legitimate ruler, we are rebelling against God. If we obey an invalid ruler we are wasting valuable time and effort, besides supporting the reign and wrongdoing of an impostor (e.g. consider that a solider who kills an enemy combatant who is serving a God ordained ruler, whilst the solider himself serves a ruler who was not ordained by God. That solider may be considered a hero in his home country for his victory, but the reality would be that he is a murderer).
Hi Pete,

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. There is nothing abstract about the institution of civil authorities sanctioned by God. However small or great, we are to honor the seat and exercise good behavior which conflates with any rule or law within that society. God's criteria doesn't mention the one in authority must be a Believer in order for Christians to submit to good law and order. As far a soldiers fighting or He who bears the sword in government goes, God doesn't call these people murders, rather, He says the following, "for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil." Again, evil rulers are dealt with by God, always has and always will be according to His purposes.
thrombomodulin wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:
For it is ultimately The Christian's responsibility to love, respect, and honor all people, to include those proclaiming to be our enemy.
I have no disagreement here, but it is quite a different matter to say that we need to submit to and obey the arbitrary decrees that other men make.
There is nothing arbitrary about submitting to legitimate authorities which govern a society, fostering good behavior not at odds with God's commands. "The Men" holding the seat is irrelevant to the responsibility The Christian has in that society. God does not demand this criteria in order for us to submit to good law and order.
thrombomodulin wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:
Government institutions exist by God's decree and the rules and laws that govern a society are meant to promote good behavior and punish the bad in that society.
Yes, all governments do that to some extent, and also do the opposite to some extent. It is normative that they do much less of the former, and much more of the latter.
I understand your concern, but it is irrelevant regarding what our responsibility is in any given society. If its more to the positive, we obey God, and if it's more to the negative we still obey God. Our situation, in this regard, remains constant. Like I said before, we of all people, should not be confused on what's going on. God is in full control as scripture clearly outlines for us.
thrombomodulin wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:
When laws and rules begin to clash with God's commands we are to exercise civil disobedience, to the likes of what the 1st Century church has shown us, (such as; stop preaching in the name of Yeshua, and that order being totally ignored.) for we are to obey God rather than man and this may or may not cause persecution in our lives. If it does, well then to God be the glory!
Those are certainly valid exceptions which almost no Christian would disagree with. The question is how far do we go in considering what "clashes"? This leads to Question #3: Were the Israelite citizens under the rule of invalid authorities (Hosea 8:3-4) obliged to obey anything whatsoever from these illegitimate rulers?
We know what clashes based on what the Word of God says. Of course each Christian must deal with their own conscience and biblical understanding to sort this out for themselves. But this individualized concept doesn't complicate the matter, no more than it does by distinguishing a babe in Christ from the one who is mature, or the one weak in the faith verse the one who is strong. Each law or rule must be dealt with on its own merits. Most laws or rules in no way conflict with God's commands, but when they do, we simply exercise civil disobedience and prepare to suffer the consequences if need be.

Concerning Hosea, the Israelites were under Torah. Rulers who moved them away from Torah should have been their clue to exercise civil disobedience and suffer the consequences that most assuredly would have happened.

God Bless.

jpat1975
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by jpat1975 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:37 pm

Thoughts on the likely hood of this scenario in the last chapter?

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... ostasy.htm

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TheEditor
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:49 pm

I won't speak to the eschatology, but I will offer this; It appears to me that there are indeed a great many people with the capacity to embrace the bizarre. This, coupled with perhaps an increasing frustration with what some people perceive as culture going down the toilet, may encourage people to convert. I heard a speech by a Muslim apologist arguing for Sharia law. He made a very appealing case for it; protection of women and the family from rape and abuse; protection of private property rights, and etc. Now, when I listened to him, all the while I could feel my carnal mind thinking, "Yeah, society does need a moral slap upside the head", but I knew it was carnality speaking, not the love of God or Christ. I can only presume that others with much less grounding in the love of God could convert to such an obviously troubling religious paradigm. Besides which, haven't "Theocratic" laws been tried during the 1600s in this nation as well as Calvin's Geneva? There seems to be an appeal in that kind of thing to man.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

jpat1975
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by jpat1975 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:17 pm

Given the 100 of 1000s of refuges pouring into Europe it appears this scenario is 10 years away. Europe is doomed I am guessing.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... ostasy.htm

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/09/rober ... nto-europe

#TrojanHorse

dwilkins
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:20 am

Historicism already applies the seven trumpet judgements to Islam as it rose and destroyed the capital of the Orthodox Church. I propose that as dispensational premillennialism becomes more and more untenable a new Historicism based on Islam as the focus of the seven bowl judgments (as opposed to the RCC) will become popular.

Doug

jpat1975
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by jpat1975 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:46 am

Two videos that should be convincing proof that Islam is reason enough to believe in dispensationalism and world wide end time events. In short: Demographics fast reaching a tipping point of no return making Islam the dominant world religion. See that scenario in that last link. This appears to be a sure thing in the next 50 years. I am thinking Jesus will return before it's two late but I think this is how and why things will be great tribulation for the entire world.

Can anyone here give me another way this cannot be the case? Yes individual nations rise and fall and have their own life cycle. But the spread of Islam is world wide. Probably only the Latino countries will avoid this longer.

https://youtu.be/OUJNxRqrcyQ

https://youtu.be/qZ-QX8LuKHA

The refuge crisis is going to fast track this in Europe. I honestly think Europe is a lost cause. North America still hs time but I don't think there is enough wise and courageous people in power or running who have the will to do anything.

Only Jesus is the answer. On one hand my generation will not be around to suffer this but I fear for my children.

steve7150
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by steve7150 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:10 pm

The refuge crisis is going to fast track this in Europe. I honestly think Europe is a lost cause. North America still hs time but I don't think there is enough wise and courageous people in power or running who have the will to do anything.

Only Jesus is the answer. On one hand my generation will not be around to suffer this but I fear for my children






Even without refugees Europe in a couple of generations will probably be mostly muslim because of the great disparity in birth rates between muslims and Europeans.
The European birthrate is around 1.5 kids per couple and may be less now and for muslims in Europe I think it's around 7.
It seems to me Islam is not just another Anti-Christ system because many of it's tenants are created specifically against Christianity. Two off the top of my head are that it claims God had no Son and it was Judas that died on the cross. Written specifically into the Quran to directly oppose Christianity head on , countering Christianity's two greatest claims, that Jesus is the Son of God and he was resurrected and ascended into heaven.

jpat1975
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Re: Question: Opinion on Islam and Revelation?

Post by jpat1975 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:43 pm

How does this trend affect you're view of eschatology? Isn't this a given global end times scenario to usher in Christ's return? Keeping in mind that their end times scenario is in line with what many dispensational Christians are espousing? The only key difference being OUR good guys are THEIR bad guys? How familiar are you with those parallel versions of these end times?

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