Bethel - Redding, CA

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backwoodsman
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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by backwoodsman » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:00 pm

TK wrote:I guess the bottom line is whether we can only listen to music by musicians with perfect theology, whatever that is.
I think you may have missed the point of my posts in this thread. This has nothing to do with theology; it has to do with Christians listening to demons and calling them "God". Of course I realize some Christians don't think demons really do much of anything these days, but in my experience they're incorrect. I certainly don't expect to change anyone's mind on that, and of course it's also a big mistake to be unbalanced in the opposite direction. But it seems clear that followers of Jesus would be wise to avoid spiritual influences coming from a place in which demons are allowed as free a hand as they are at Bethel.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:00 pm

Here is a video (poor recording) from the New Apostolic Reformation as they commission Todd Bentley during a revival Todd was leading in Florida:

https://youtu.be/YEwsG4lsXq4

The main speaker in the video is "apostle" Wagner who named and began the New Apostolic Reformation, making himself the head, and appointed Bill Johnson (Bethel), Rick Joyner, and several others apostles under himself.

Within two months the revival fell apart and over the next several months after Todd Bentley was commissioned into the club, it became known that he had been having an affair with a woman on his ministry staff, a woman he eventually left his wife for and took as a new wife. He said that he had met this new woman while his marriage was on the rocks, but there is no biblical reason I have found for them to get a divorce - and it was Todd who initiated the separation with his now ex-wife.

Also, it was released that he had no proof for the miraculous claims he made on stage related to his apostolic ministry, including his claim of having raised dozens from the dead. His methods on stage came under greater review as he was violent towards people, claiming to be under the power of the Holy Spirit. He knocked out one man's tooth and purposefully kicked an elderly lady in the face. This, as well as being on stage under the influence of alcohol.

Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner took him under their care after it came out he was having an affair, and mentored him into his new marriage, and ensured he was restored into ministry.

Just last week Todd was here in Portland for a huge conference that many of my old charismatic friends attended. He is famous for his prophecy that Portland and the I5 corridor at large would be a conduit of revival. I've read previously of his past, but his appearance in Portland made me decide to sit back down and put some more effort into finding out his background.

If you can stand to sit through it, here is 6 minutes of Todd in action: https://youtu.be/mQ9uQsDqIhE

Here is a 4 minute video where Todd is on stage with his ex-wife, shortly before he was commissioned, and he was prophesying family breakthrough (while he was engaged in an affair): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=425DdF-P-yU

Bill Johnson of Bethel counts Todd as a close friend and has written public letters of recommendation since his "restoration" regarding Todd and Todd's ministry.
Last edited by jaydam on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:12 pm

Here is a video of Todd Bentley's new wife. I hate using videos that people have jaded with their own sarcastic input, and I wish I could just post untainted videos, but it is tough to find the originals.

https://youtu.be/XjMYqDHbYtg

At the 3 minute mark things get really interesting. I've seen this behavior before at Bethel. Hissing, jerking, head throwing, etc. I find no peace in my spirit over it, and it seems demonic to me.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:55 pm

So much of that story is gross. But the part that gets to me (and my wife) the most is this one:
Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner took him under their care after it came out he was having an affair, and mentored him *into* his new marriage, and ensured he was restored into ministry.
This minimizing of adultery, and divorce, and then lifting up the marriage with the other woman is beyond anything that could be called leadership. And all the worse, when these men raise themselves up to such lofty positions.
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:34 pm

A video to show Bill Johnson's "apostolic" thought process which then produces much of the doctrine he teaches:

https://youtu.be/muvcJVastxc?list=PLUaR ... wuLS4Z8GMJ

There is much to be said about his contentions without scriptural backing, but I believe a key issue begins with the question at 1:41 relating to David's Proverbs 4 preparation of Solomon to gain wisdom, and subsequently Solomon's opportunity to choose wisdom from God.

Bill asks, "Is it possible that the only man given that option was Solomon, because he was the only one prepared to make the right choice?"

Well, Bill doesn't actually look into the question, but progresses with a theology of "prophecy" based upon the assumption the question is affirmatively answered.

His idea from an affirmative answer of this question? What we prophetically impart to others attracts God given opportunities, because we are preparing people ahead of time to make the right choice.

Bill believes David prophetically prepared Solomon for the choice ahead of time, so God was able to give Solomon the choice. Likewise, we should do the same to people...

There seem to be a couple of serious issue to me related to the soundness of this teaching:

First, Bill never ensured he answered his question to see if it was a valid one to continue with.

Second, the theology cannot account for all the choices God seems to present people with, yet the people chose incorrectly. It is readily apparent that God does not wait to have choices presented to us until we have been previously "spoken into" to prepare us to act rightly.

Bill Johnson does this often if you watch him. Asking questions and basing a theological statement off the affirmative without proving the affirmative. It sounds logical to uncritical ears, but proves incoherent when you realize he skipped a step.

Edit: The other issue with his question is that even if it is affirmative that it is POSSIBLE, you cannot know for sure, so you cannot make a concrete idea based off this anyway.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:22 pm

morbo3000 wrote:So much of that story is gross. But the part that gets to me (and my wife) the most is this one:
Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner took him under their care after it came out he was having an affair, and mentored him *into* his new marriage, and ensured he was restored into ministry.
This minimizing of adultery, and divorce, and then lifting up the marriage with the other woman is beyond anything that could be called leadership. And all the worse, when these men raise themselves up to such lofty positions.
I agree. Its interesting that the original apostles never had such scandal in their ranks. But people accept it within the ranks of their own modern apostles?

If they want to call what they have today apostles, then maybe they should hold them to the example of the originals...

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by morbo3000 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:22 pm

I'm at a church conference this week. My "denomination" has a similar theological base as Bethel that leaves it susceptible to the type of aberrations present at Bethel. My specific church isn't like that, but I can see fingerprints of it it in denomination.

Case in point. The host congregation lead worship for these two days. We started with a good song. But then led into these songs that were really bizarre lyrically. After the singing was over, the visiting pastor wondered aloud if those songs had been written by the host congregation. They had.

The lyrical content was exactly as the witches from the patheos article described.
The underlying subtext of what they were chanting was “I am nothing, Jesus is everything”. Their own personal power to make things work in the world needed to be given up to Jesus.... That was the work they were doing, attempting to essentially divorce themselves of their own power, hand it to Jesus, and be completely open and empty as an end to itself. I wondered, is that the state they consider to be pure and divinely inspired? Is their human ability to love other people, to care about things besides Jesus and their worship, to even have a body and enjoy moving around in it, just in the way?"
I couldn't sing. I suddenly felt divorced from the experience of worship in a way I never have. I looked around and wondered "where the heck am I? What strange worship environment have I been catapulted into?"

To the testimony of the conference attendees, they weren't very engaged in the song either. A good powerful worship song, played powerfully can lead people into a power experience of worshipping the living God. In this situation, the band was leading with that same intensity.. the songs were written with the same cues that would lead to a powerful experience of worship. But it wasn't working.

Obviously, at Bethel, that emptying motif works. It didn't very well here. But this gave me a taste of the environment at Bethel.

Gross.
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by Jepne » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:43 pm

I am so glad for this thread - this nonsense is pervading our area - and I am beginning to think that the church I was in for twelve years ending 18 years ago was very much like this. They were always prophesying - if it was to be a time of plenty, I did not have plenty, if it was a time of lack, I had abundance. They were looking for anointings, 'double portions', impartations - none of it affected me - but I had great friends there and was in music playing my flute and it was just wonderful until one day it seemed to all fall apart and I saw the falseness of it all and shortly after, met my husband and left. There have been a lot of divorces there especially after I left.

We fellowship with Anabaptists up here - family people - they love God and want to obey him - real simple. I love it.

So - all of y'alls input into this thread is helping me see this all more clearly and I really appreciate it, so don't stop. For sure it is helping many who may not say anything. Bless you, and thank you!
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by DeGraff » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:59 pm

I have attended a church with Baptist bent since 2001. Around 2005 I got involved with a fledgling small group that was into moves of the spirit. I had not been near charismatic types for close to 30 years, and it was kind of freeing to let loose a bit, explore things I had stayed clear of for so long.

The first book we discussed as a group was "When Heaven Invades Earth" by Bill Johnson. I have to admit, I could not get into the book at all. It's words just bounced off my brain. As a group, twice we went and heard Jonathan Welton speak. His book at the time was "The School of the Seers". Part of the teaching was training us to see angels around us, pick up on their colors and locations. By this time I was just going for the worship and fellowship with dear friends. The teachings were vague and without any structure or logic. My friends were looking for an experience... what will happen when God shows up. Maybe someone will prophesy over them. Maybe gold dust will appear on their Bible pages. Maybe they will be feel God's presence in a deep, powerful way. Anything seemed not only possible, but likely. The group gradually drifted apart, some going to another church (AoG) and others focusing on Hebrew Roots teaching.

I have friends around the world who love the various expressions of the New Apostolic Reformation. They post links to the craziest stuff on Facebook. Great, overarching words from God to the whole body... "we are entering a season of _____... I see increased (insert natural disaster here)... It reads like a horoscope, only instead of 12 destinies we all have the same one.

The same people posting Elijah List entries also seem to have fallen for unrelated health issues like not immunizing, natural remedies, avoiding gmo food, etc. I guess the lack of discernment is global and not just isolated to spiritual matters.

Enough of my rant. I also appreciate this site. It's a place where I can go to get my iron sharpened.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Mon May 09, 2016 3:27 pm

I am glad people are finding this thread helpful and informative. I have neglected the thread lately, but have some new things to put up.

First are a couple posts by Shawn Bolz. He is a NAR prophet who came up under Mike Bickle in the 90's, but has recently experienced a surge of popularity.

You will notice if you watch his prophetic videos that he prophecies like a psychic. Calling out random numbers and names to see what sticks. Additionally, he, along with many other prophets in the NAR movement, use tablet devices now to write out their scattered prophecies before hand.

Here is Shawn prophesying over Bill Johnson late last year. Shawn begins by speaking of being "caught up" while speaking to the crowd, and he sees dead false prophet Bob Jones (a big father of the NAR movement). He claims that the experience weirded him out, "but in a good way." He then progresses to give his psychic style prophecy.

Notice when he prophetically "names" Bill Johnson's father he is uncertain of the name and throws out a couple options. When one sticks to Bill's father's name, then Shawn continues with that name as if there was no doubt, and the audience oo's and ah's. It is typical psychic tricks.

Also, notice that just before that when he is describing driving, he says maybe it was a right turn from Olive St. onto Gold St., then when he gets the directions confirmed randomly by someone in the audience, he suddenly becomes sure of himself. Saying, "that's absolutely right," that is was a right turn from Olive St. onto Gold St.

There is more, but I leave the video for you to watch and discern.

https://youtu.be/5l_y_WoUcdU

Having been an interrogator in the Army, and getting a chance to take advanced body language and deceptive speech classes, his prophesying screams deception both in body language and speech style. I've brought this up with some of my friends who are in the NAR movement and they tell me that I cannot apply my deception training to him because such signs might just be how he acts under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

In case you don't know, NAR teaching is that you can have jerking, random grunts, ticks, ect. when overcome by the Holy Spirit. Heidi Baker, another NAR prophet and miracle worker is famous for her speech being broken up by violent twitching and shouting under the Holy Spirit influence.

Anyway, here are the posts from Shawn speaking to his prophetic method and some difficulties he ran into recently:
5/7/16
Last night in Dallas I tanked in the prophetic. I tried around 5 words with no results then I got one couple that made the whole experience worth it but wow! Thank God it's not about performance but about love! The Upper Room was super gracious like family and thank God my message was brilliant lol. It's always worth taking risks and growing! I am still at such a beginning place from where I want to be.
5/9/16
My prophetic process: notes from the road:

I (heart) Dallas. It was my hardest place I have ministered in the prophetic in a while. The Upper Room church wasn't the reason why, they are the most amazing group of genuine faith filled loving people.

It was just difficult to hear and get clarity on what I felt God was telling me this trip. Some things I received even threw me off and I had to fight to maintain courage because it just didn't happen in my normal process. (Some of you might have read my post about tanking the first night...that was hard but I stayed in a healthy fun place).
One thing that I am real time realizing is that I have been very reliant on my prophetic process. That means my normal process of how God has revealed himself through me might have become too reliable for me. I think some of the prophetic ways God has used me have created an expectation or model or mode in me that I am just reliant on and God is saying "no boxes, don't get so comfortable that you think you are in control! Come closer to me!"

I have always known there is always a deeper place to discover in Jesus. I love how unpredictable his love and move is inside of us. He just is not going to always show up the same way every time when He manifests himself in fullness. We have to adapt and change for him, he doesn't adapt and change for us.

Last night I called out a series of 5 different people who were not in the sanctuary or not in the church that night but everyone knew them. I had words of knowledge that were undeniable like addresses, places they lived, specific dates that were important but we had to do phone prophecy for each one. Then after that many words I had to ask God :" what in the heck?”

Why wasn't he speaking to people who were directly in the service and that made the effort to come and would be encouraged there but I heard God say about this church I was with that they are going to have a world impact and they weren't limited to who was gathering in the service but God was showing how he was meeting people at their home and in their car and that there is going to be a move of God there outside the context of the meetings and the "known."

I didn't realize that my individual experiences with the words was supposed to be a prophetic experience to form a corporate word until I pressed in.

May be helpful to you:

After the first night where my words didn't work except over one couple and I posted my vulnerable process I had good christian people leave terrible messages responding to my social media posts. Super rude messages about how I should step down and how I have pride and God was humbling me. People were trying to find reasons for why my ministry didn't land that night. I also had the religious brigade use my statement as fuel to their fire of what a fraud I am in. Just so you know neither of these reports are shaking to me because I can't be responsible for their unbelief or bad theology. It is annoying to press "ban" and "delete" a thousand times in just over a month but it comes with the new ground.

If I was fully insecure or if I fell back into performance, or even just stopped loving the ones I was getting words for because it was outside my process box, I would have missed some beautiful displays of Jesus's love nature that I got to be a part of. My old performance self on this trip tempted me, and almost pulled me out of the joy of experiencing the child like joy of walking with God.

I am learning.

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