Bethel - Redding, CA

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backwoodsman
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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by backwoodsman » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:16 pm

morbo3000 wrote:We sing quite a few bethel songs. They are quite good.
Quite good in what way? Musically? I'm sure they are. Spiritually, in a Biblical, Christian sort of way? That seems very unlikely, considering that much of the spiritual power in the environment that produced them is known to be demonic.
But there really are significant differences between bethel and my experience of traditional charismatic churches, such as foursquare and vineyard.
Actually I was struck by the similarity of their descriptions of Bethel to some of the large well-known movements within charismatic circles with which I've been familiar over the last 30-some years. It's really very similar to the "Toronto Blessing" thing of the 1990's; most of that was demonstrably demonic as well, at least what I saw of it. There really is nothing new under the sun, it just gets repackaged with slightly different trappings for an audience that craves whatever looks flashy and exciting.

But it does seem like Christians are collectively more and more easily deceived by these things as time goes on. I suppose that's because the church is becoming more and more permeated with new-age teachings and practices in recent decades, and it's really not that much of a jump from that stuff to Bethel, IHOP, and the like. That also explains why pagan witches felt quite comfortable there. Bethel and the witches are both trying to control spiritual power, and both from the same source, as it turns out.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:59 pm

This is just one song. There are many others that are thoroughly biblical, and point to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Without being about empowerment or self-serving. This is a very humble song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNqo4Un2uZI

Verse 1
Grand earth has quaked before
Moved by the sound of His voice
Seas that are shaken and stirred
Can be calmed and broken for my regard

Chorus
And through it all, through it all
My eyes are on You
And through it all, through it all
It is well

And through it all, through it all
My eyes are on You
And it is well with me

Verse 2
Far be it from me to not believe
Even when my eyes can't see

And this mountain that's in front of me
Will be thrown into the midst of the sea

Chorus
Through it all, through it all
My eyes are on You
Through it all, through it all
It is well
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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jaydam
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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:00 am

backwoodsman wrote:It's really very similar to the "Toronto Blessing" thing of the 1990's...
Its more than similar, Bethel is intrinsically tied to the Toronto Blessing. "...Bill Johnson was profoundly influenced by the Toronto Blessing, in his own words Johnson relates: "In Toronto I said, 'Lord, if You touch me again I will never change the subject.' So I went up for prayer every time it was offered. I didn't have anything dramatic happen, but I came home and said, 'I am going to give the rest of my life to this.'"[6]

I believe the Toronto Blessing is also where the New Apostolic Reformation claims its origin.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:37 am

I have to agree that some of the lyrics are pretty good that come out of Bethel and/or Jesus Culture.

Jesus Culture was a worship group that came out of Bethel, but has parted ways to start their own church south of Redding, about an hour from San Fransisco I believe.

Some of my favorite songs they do:
Give Me Jesus

Give me Jesus
Give me Jesus
You can have all this world
But give me Jesus (x2)

Give me the one my soul delights in
Give me the one in whom my hope is securely found (x2)

Securely found (x2)

Give me the one my soul delights in
Give me the one in whom my hope is securely found (x2)

Securely found (x4)

Give me Jesus
Give me Jesus

You can have all this world
But give me Jesus (x2)
For the Cross

The life You gave
Your body was broken
Your love poured out
You bled and You died for me
There on the cross
You breathed Your last as you were crucified
You gave it all for me

Hallelujah, what a Savior
Hallelujah, what a friend
Hallelujah, King forever
We thank You for the cross

There in the ground
Sealed in the darkness
Lifeless laid
The frame of the Father's son
In agony
He watched His only Son be sacrificed
He gave it all for me

But on that day
What seemed as the darkest hour
A violent hope
Broke through and shook the ground
And as You rose
The Light of all the world was magnified
And You rose in victory

Hallelujah, it is finished
Hallelujah, it is done
Hallelujah, King forever
We thank you for the cross

Though our sins are scarlet
You have made us white as snow. x2
I have really struggled with how great I believe some of their music is, but how false I feel they are as a church. I've been to many churches which play their songs including the one I go to now, and my wife is very into their music.

A nonbeliever who sleeps around and does not believe in biblical marriage can write a beautiful love song which I feel can properly convey the love I feel for my wife in our correct expression of relationship. And I can purchase and listen to the music such as it is.

I've considered that the same could be said about Bethel's songs. Bethel might be off base, but that does not mean they cannot accidentally write a great song which I can appreciate. However, on the flip side, I believe there is a difference as outlined in 1 Co 5:11ff. I don't know that I can support the songs and finances of a false church in the same way that I might buy and listen to a secular artist's work.

When I saw Bethel for who they are, I have cut all Bethel/Jesus Culture music from my life as I cannot justify that my support of their music goes to perpetuate Bethel.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by TK » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:06 am

I am glad the issue of music came up because I was going to bring it up.

I agree 100% that a lot of the music out of bethel, Jesus culture, IHOP (particularly Misty Edwards) is really good- both musically and lyrically.

My question to the doubters is whether you believe they are praising the one true God in these songs- it certainly seems they are. I know I am when I am singing them.

What kills me is when a very mainstream contemporary Christian group like Phillips Craig and dean takes their songs and turns them into big hits. I don't generally hear Jesus Culture or Bethel worship or Misty Edwards on "top 40" Christian radio, which I try to avoid if at all possible.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:33 am

TK wrote:My question to the doubters is whether you believe they are praising the one true God in these songs- it certainly seems they are. I know I am when I am singing them.
I know a guy who now attends a Unitarian church because he wants to feel comfortable going to strip clubs, sleeping around, and getting drunk. They sing Bethel songs, Amazing Grace, and many more of the same songs we all would.

I don't think you can look to the wording of simplistic worship songs to determine if the church is true or false.

Gnostics can sing worship of God and Christ, but when you realize they do not believe God became man, and the Christ they worship never truly died because he was never truly flesh, then you begin to see the problems. I believe Bethel is the same way. Lyrically it can sound right, but eventually the true beliefs reveal themselves.

In other words, I would say that you and I can sing the same songs as heretics and not be heretical.
Last edited by jaydam on Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by backwoodsman » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:44 am

TK wrote:My question to the doubters is whether you believe they are praising the one true God in these songs- it certainly seems they are. I know I am when I am singing them.
That's a good question; the answer is, I don't know, nor do you. It's clear those at Bethel with whom the witches interacted really believe they're listening to the real God, but it's equally clear they're actually listening to demons and calling them God. Do you honestly believe that songs produced in such an environment are the best worship you can offer to God? If so, then I'll leave you to sort that out between you and God; but to me it seems like a foolhardy compromise for the sake of personal preference. It's not like there's no other good worship music available, or like you even need music to worship.

Even if it's true that you can offer your best worship to God using Bethel's music, what about those weaker and less mature who are watching you, to whom you're giving the impression that Bethel is a Godly place that puts out Godly worship music, so of course the rest of what's there must be Godly too, right? If you must listen to music from a place you know is permeated with demonic deception, at least do it in private where you won't contribute to others' spiritual deception.

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by morbo3000 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:41 pm

Another possibility is that both Bethel and the witches are just full of hooey. We shouldn't take at face value the testimony of either the witches, nor church members. Both may simply have overactive imaginations.

We probably just have bad orthodoxy and orthopraxy at work here. We don't need to assume a malevolent entity is at work to explain this stuff.

I just happened to be looking at Acts 8 today for an unrelated question. Simon the sorcerer had the ear of people, and their adulation, because they were captivated by his sorceries. I'm not sure it's necessary to believe he had power. Magicians who astound people with tricks are as old as time. It was Philip's display of Christian power that captivated *him* and turned the people away from him.

Philip undermined the people's delusion under the sorcerer's tricks by showing a display of true power. Words weren't enough. Maybe that's what Bethel and the witches need. I wonder what that would look like.
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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by TK » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Do you honestly believe that songs produced in such an environment are the best worship you can offer to God?
I don't know what environment they were composed in. I suspect they were composed with a lot of prayer and time and maybe even fasting. I don't think the songs are composed to demons.

I brought up Phillips Craig & Dean in my prior post; they are very popular; they write their own songs and cover a lot of other artist's songs. They are also Oneness Pentecostals. Should people not listen to their music on that basis? I don't listen to them for other reasons, but not that reason.

I guess the bottom line is whether we can only listen to music by musicians with perfect theology, whatever that is.

I know Bethel is pretty wacky but I honestly don't believe they are devil worshippers. In fact they might even go to heaven. :shock:

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Re: Bethel - Redding, CA

Post by jaydam » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:24 pm

https://youtu.be/idi0YPmfZEY

The 3 minute story of how Bill Johnson's son became a pastor through "finger" reading. Notice that he says back when they did the figure reading it was strange, but now it is a "normal" thing in their culture.

You'll notice from his speech that he is deaf.

It is interesting that Bill Johnson and his wife, who both declare healing was purchased by Christ's stripes and you can declare it to happen, have a deaf son. Every time (twice) I visited Bethel their son was continually prayed over for healing, and has yet to be healed.

I can't help wondering how blind Bill, Benni, and his followers are to see that their apostle's teaching cannot heal the apostle's own son.

This was one of the first thing that truly pricked my conscience to the falseness of their teaching when I briefly found myself getting pulled into the word of faith as I visited Bethel within the first 5 months of my conversion. I was brand new, and bewildered at this conflict in teaching. I don't know how others cannot see the problem, yet it was readily apparent to me.

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