Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

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jpat1975
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Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by jpat1975 » Fri May 13, 2016 11:18 am

I could not seem to convince this fellow the ideas expressed in the subject header are silly. How to respond or show him these are silly ideas?

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ME: "Did Jesus disciples only drink unfermented wine at the Passover? I seem to recall yourself or another being confident of such. Give the seasons for grapes, absence of refridgeration, and Paul recommending wine to most likely cleanse disentary from Timothy's water. . doesn't this prove against those who make such assertions that any ÷ of alcohol is automatically sin?

I suppose someone could say God revealed so but such could not be givem true revelation can never trump scripture.

This isn't of course to say that God could not reveal such a person who He knows to be: a) weak in the faith; b) prone to alcoholism; c) constantly surrounded by those who might be; d) more or all of the above.

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-drink-wine.html

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HIM: "...So I wasn't sure if you just wanted me to say quickly that I am not merely claiming a direct revelation about this and asking others to take my word for it, or if you wanted a detailed argument. I will have to write a detailed discussion later, maybe after I get back, if I remember. I suggest reading David Wilkerson's Sipping Saints for a nice survey of ancient writings indicating that the word translated "wine" in the NT was normally unfermented juice (there are a LOT of Greek and Roman writers that describe boiling grape juice to make "wine," which would make fermentation impossible). Or you can do a word search and see how many of the instances of "wine" in the Bible are negative in some way as opposed to positive (Micah 2:11, Jer 13, Psalm 75, and my current favorite, Proverbs 31), and ask yourself what the Scriptures say on balance. A search for the word "beer" yields an even more one-sided result. I think the wedding of Cana story was NOT an endorsement of drinking (the story doesn't even say that the "wine" was ever served to the guests, or that anyone there got saved, or that anyone even knew that a miracle had occurred), but instead was a prophetic "sign" fulfilling the prophecy in Jer 13 about jars being filled with wine of judgment (ESV) - sort of like the cursing of the fig tree miracle.

Or, I could sometime lay out a completely secular argument against alcohol (I think it should be illegal, actually), that has nothing to do with spiritual matters.

Christians who say it is OKAY to drink "in moderation" seem to think it is not that serious a sin to drink a bit too much sometimes, and their idea of "moderation" seems to include drinking enough that it affects them in their mind and emotions. Nobody in the world is more sanctified when they have drunk a little alcohol or less likely to sin or more prepared for a deep prayer time."

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ME: "...Moderation is possible despite all those who have failed to do so. If one cannot have a single sip or glass over turkey dinner than Timothy was also in sin along with anyone who has ever ingested an iota of it medicinally. If moderation is not realistic then any percentage is sin. Silly."

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HIM: "If you're starting by calling me silly, there is no reason to continue the discussion, thanks.
I do not empathize with people who want to do this. "

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ME: "the idea of any percentage is silly"
"if you agree its silly the you must agree that moderation is possible and not sin. you cannot have it both ways.
thats my point"

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HIM: "We disagree, but we should just agree to pray for each other about it. I do not think alcohol should be legal. I understand you think I am silly, and I'm fine with that."

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ME: "i do not think you are. we all hold to ideas that are silly to varying degrees.
for the record i would not recommend for anyone to drink. to much risk for me to do so."

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So that's been basically the conversation so far. He also asked me if I prayed in tongues, but said that was on an unrelated note.

I agree we should probably avoid alcohol altogether, but am strongly against any wiff of legalism. Such legalism should be opposed, and such persons who hint at that, should, at the very least, admit that moderation is possible, and the hypocrisy of taking any medicine or food prepared with alcohol as an ingredient. If any % is sin, then they have to account for that. This is why I called the idea SILLY. It IS silly. Not a silly concern, but SILLY and flat out WRONG to forbid.

This same person also believes that God revealed to a neo-Pentecostal group we both left due to spiritual abuses there that "Pleading The Blood" and "Consulting The Word" (Bibliomancy) is a special new revelation from God. We've had some recent dicussions with some former pastors who also left the group. This guy was basically marginalized by the leaders there, yet still clings to the past, while these other former pastors have moved on. This one pastor who I quoted above needs to get over this. I worry about him. I think this superstitious mindset is part of what's driving him to not agree with me on this issue of alcohol.

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steve
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by steve » Fri May 13, 2016 12:54 pm

Nothing in his reply makes anything like a scriptural case. I am not sure what is the purpose of (ridiculously) questioning whether anyone at the wedding feast, besides the master of ceremonies, even drank the wine Jesus made. If the question is suggesting that a negative answer would support his case, then is he saying the wine that Jesus made was not intended for human consumption? If so, would the master of ceremonies be exempt from this restriction? I don't think I am getting the argument here.

However, I do understand the other major arguments of your correspondent—and find them entirely vacuous.

The argument for the negative leanings of scripture against wine:

The negative verses in scripture about wine can all, very reasonably, be seen as references to the danger of its abuse. The positive statements (e.g., Gen.27:28; Exodus 29:40; Deut.14:26; Judges 9:13; Psalm 4:7; 104:15; Prov.31:6-7; Jer.31:12; John 2:10; 1 Tim.5:23) cannot be eliminated by a appeal to the number of verses are negative—just as verses condemning gluttons (a group always closely associated with drunkards, in scripture—Deut.21:20; Prov.23:20-21; 28:7; Matt.11:19)—even if such verses outnumbered the verses about eating, in general—could not reasonably be used to forbid all consumption of food.

It does not matter how many verses on wine are positive and how many are negative. This reminds me of the dispensational preacher who said, "Our view of Israel must be right, because the Bible uses the word "Israel" something like two-thousand times!"

We don't arrive at good doctrine through the numerical calculation of the occurence of a word, or of the passages that say one thing over against those that say another. It is the exegesis of particular passages (all of them) that can determine the biblical teaching.

The argument that the wine in scripture is unfermented:

By the way, the claim that the Bible mostly says "negative" things about wine pretty much proves that it was fermented. Why would even one verse ever be written condemning the use of unfermented grape juice?

If the wine in scripture was unfermented, why did Jesus refer to it as rupturing the wineskins (a result of fermentation—see Matt.9:17; cf., Job 32:19)? He actually recommended the use of "new wineskins" in order to accommodate this fermenting process!

Why did Paul rebuke the Corinthians (1 Cor.11:21) for getting drunk (clearly by abusing the communion wine), rather than rebuking them for even having such potentially-intoxicating wine at the table?

If people generally did not ferment their wine in the ancient world, why do the ancient Latin, Greek and Hebrew writers all refer to the common practice of putting a bit of wine in their water to purify it? What good would non-fermented wine do in such a case?

Related to the last point, it is of significance that the "wine" (Gr. oinos) which Paul advocates, in "a little" measure (1 Tim.5:23), is the same oinos that he, in the same epistle, forbids, in "much" measure (1 Tim.3:8). If the wine is unfermented, what could be the harm in one drinking "much" of it? What good would unfermented grape juice (whether little or much) do for Timothy's dysentery?

David Wilkerson's stance against drinking wine:

David Wilkerson was a Pentecostal minister. I loved the guy, but Pentecostals are historically and predictably advocates of tea-totalling. You would find the same denominational partisanship in a book by a Nazarene minister. No matter how respected a Christian leader may be, he must not be permitted to twist the scripture in favor of his denominational stance. The simple truth is that there is no scriptural case for enforced abstinence from all wine (my palate causes me to abstain. I don't like the taste).

jpat1975
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by jpat1975 » Fri May 13, 2016 1:26 pm

Thanks Steve, that was helpful.

I used to look up to this guy a lot back when I was more in neo-Pentecostal/Charismatic/superstitious mode.

I've probably outgrown this guy, but have learned a lot from him.

I look up to you more now as a teacher than him, but still think highly of him as he has been a good mentor over the years.

jpat1975
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by jpat1975 » Fri May 13, 2016 1:28 pm

On a related note, I came across this link, but haven't really read through it all yet. It goes into big detail about fermentation of wine and BREAD! Interesting! :-) For those yet to reply, maybe you could take a look and give your thoughts on this, if Steve has already touched on what you were going to say:

http://www.yaiy.org/literature/GrapeOrWine.html

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Fri May 13, 2016 7:28 pm

At first, I had no idea what "Any ÷ of alcohol" means. Does it mean "Any division of alcohol"? I finally figured out that it should have been "Any % of alcohol."

It might interest you to know that the church group of which I am part believes that one should use unleavened bread and unleavened wine for communion. Unleavened bread is considered to be bread that has been made without yeast and therefore contains no yeast cells (leaven). Unleavened wine is considered to be fermented wine. Grape juice ferments when there are yeast cells and sugar present. After fermentation is complete, all yeast cells have fallen to the bottom and the pure unleavened wine (without yeast cells) is then skimmed off. If one uses mere grape juice instead of wine, then the drink is leavened (since it contains yeast cells that have entered it from the air).
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Sat May 14, 2016 11:28 am

In addition to Steve's points. I think that Luke 7:33–44 is intending to indicate that Jesus did drink wine that had alcohol in it while John didn't. If this is the case then there is no sin in it. There is however great temptation. Jesus being perfect put himself in situations that would be too tempting for others. I think we need to remain careful that we are mature enough and have enough self control to handle the temptations we expose ourselves to. At the same time we need to be careful that we aren't making commandments that don't exist.

It seems clear to me that God doesn't teach to the test. We would learn nothing from this. We were given some Commandments initially but we couldn't follow them and missed the point of them entirely. We often have to do this with children who are not capable of comprehending complex issues and we are interested in behavior rather than character. As the child matures we remove the rules in order to test the character and the maturity. When character isn't strong enough to lead to proper behavior rules are often brought back until enough maturity is reached that correct behavior is natural.

I think churches that put forth these types of statements are becoming legalistic in their approach are turning the behavior into the issue rather than the character. While this may lead to very good behavior it won't lead to mature Christians.

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Sat May 14, 2016 9:10 pm

I don't think the consumption of alcohol or the lack thereof, has much relation to strength of character. It may have more of a relation to one's biology. Some people, when they take their first drink, seem to have no control thereafter and become alcoholics. Others are not at all tempted to overindulge.

Personally, I began to drink a bit of wine when I was in my early twenties. I continued occasionally to consume wine, and also rum throughout my life. I am now 78, and still drink 2 oz. of rum (with coke, and food) once or twice a week. I have no evidence that it has harmed me. Also, I don't think that my moderation is due to strength of character. It's probably genetics. Indeed, I don't consider my character to be all that strong. Without God's enabling grace I would likely fail in other areas of living.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Sun May 15, 2016 9:20 am

Paidion doesn't good character come from God's grace? Or is it some how otherwise obtained? Same with biology?

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Sun May 15, 2016 9:53 pm

The phrase "strength of character" suggests that which is intrinsic to a person rather than anything he has received externally.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Mon May 16, 2016 8:22 am

But the phrase "strength of character" wasn't used.

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