Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Mon May 16, 2016 8:57 am

crg, you wrote:But the phrase "strength of character" wasn't used.
It's true that you didn't use the phrase. But you did use the concept:
You wrote wrote:When character isn't strong enough to lead to proper behavior rules are often brought back until enough maturity is reached that correct behavior is natural.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Mon May 16, 2016 10:10 am

I see. Good point. My analogy was about the general learning and maturing process. I see no difference though to any other sin. There are many sins that don't temp me what so ever. I have no need for strength of character or anything thing else to avoid them. I believe it was God's grace that I don't have some temptations at all. On the other hand the sins that I do struggle with (this is one) I wish I had grace so there wasn't even a temptation. Failing that I need to mature enough that either the grace of a stronger character, the grace of removing the temptation, or some other grace needs to occur. Until then I have to rely on mercy, humbly ask forgiveness, continue to seek God, seek for the grace to love Him and everyone the way he does, need to pray and in some cases need the prayer of others. Am I missing something else?

"Lead us not into temptation" wouldn't need the "but deliver us from evil part" if the first part of the statement stood on its own. There are many areas where the first part stands on its own and these are by far the easiest to deal with. It is the later part where we are lead into temptation and have to trust that we will be delivered when that seems impossible because the temptation is so strong and we are so weak.

There are many things that in moderation aren't sinful but can become an idol if over indulged. I think these are the hardest for Christians and many don't even realize the issue. For example I think football for many has become an idol. I believe that many Christians know more about sports statistics than the bible. If they realize this is sinful and struggle with it then they can make progress and mature. If they aren't aware though that this is a problem then they might be blind to their sin.

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Mon May 16, 2016 3:03 pm

Thank you crg, for further explanations of your position. I think I am beginning to understand you better. :D
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Tue May 17, 2016 8:53 am

Thanks Paidion. I am curious what part of this position you agree or disagree with.

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Tue May 17, 2016 1:15 pm

I agree that virtually any Christian is tempted by some forms of wrongdoing and not by others.

I don't think that "Lead us not into temptation" refers to temptation to sin. Surely God wouldn't do tempt us to sin whether we prayed or not.

The Geek word "πειρασμος" (peirasmos) basically means " testing, trial, proving." I think the prayer is asking God not to put us through tests or trials or provings, but simply to deliver us from evil so that it would then be unnecessary to go through such tests.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Wed May 18, 2016 10:42 am

What is the difference between testing and temptation? What other then sin are we tested against? While it maybe that the devil is the one doing the tempting God is allowing the temptation to occur.

This is the way I currently see things (which has changed over time and may change as I learn more here and elsewhere): We are commanded two things. To love God with all of our being (everything we have and at all times) and to love everyone the way that God does. Neither of these are possible except for the Holy Spirit. This is righteousness and is what Jesus did. No one else has come close. When we walk in the Holy Spirit we come much closer but we still are of flesh. The more we die to ourselves (flesh) the more God can take over and act in this world. He can then show us a glimpse of righteousness and we can rejoice! Everything else is sin though some much worse than others (in a practical fleshly sense not sure in a spiritual sense they may all be the same there).

I don't see it as God who can't handle being around sin. I see it the other way around. It is the unrighteous that tremble in the sight of righteousness. We see all that we lack and the pain that we cause the righteous if our eyes are open to it. That may be the lake of fire. It could be us judging ourselves the way that we have judged others unless we accept the bridge that God gave us through Jesus to take on a cloak of righteousness and be forgiven and become righteous.

I am not sure that even is an adequate description but the best I have right now for a short summary.

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Paidion
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by Paidion » Wed May 18, 2016 12:06 pm

What is the difference between testing and temptation?
Scenario No. 1 TESTING
Let's say you have a young child. You may want to test him to see whether he will obey. You tell him that there is a plate of food for him on the table, but not to eat any other food while you are gone . Then when you arrive home, you check the fridge when you get home to see whether he has passed the test.

Scenario No. 2 TEMPTING
You tell your child that there is a plate of food for him on the table, but not to eat any other food while you are gone. But before leaving you place a piece of hot apple pie on the counter that exudes an appealing odor. You have deliberately tempted him to disobey. This might also be said to testing your child. But it is a lopsided test in that it makes it more likely that your child fails.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Wed May 18, 2016 5:39 pm

Thanks. I see the difference but don't see it as black and white. What if in scenario 1 his favorite food was in the fridge. Would that then qualify as temptation? Obviously if there was no food in the fridge then there would even be a test. What amount and quality of food is needed in the fridge versus the amount and quality of the food on the table.

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willowtree
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by willowtree » Wed May 18, 2016 11:39 pm

Paidion wrote:
What is the difference between testing and temptation?
Temptation is invitation to do something that is wrong.

Testing is the challenge to do something that is right.

Graeme
If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, always head for the rock. Ps 62..

crgfstr1
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Re: Any ÷ of alcohol is sin! Passover only had grape juice!

Post by crgfstr1 » Thu May 19, 2016 8:01 am

Thank you willowtree. That is a much clearer distinction that I hadn't considered.

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