Socialism

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dwight92070
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Socialism

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:08 pm

Commenting on the topic of socialism brought up on the morning show: Judas Iscariot comes real close to the beliefs of socialists today. He wanted to take the expensive ointment that a lady owned and pretend to be concerned for the poor, possibly even giving to the poor, but in the mean time stealing money from the purchased price.

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Paidion
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Re: Socialism

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:06 pm

I don't think one should paint all forms of socialism with the same brush.

Not all are "Judases."
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dwight92070
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Re: Socialism

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:18 pm

I paint all socialism as evil. When and where has there ever been socialism that has been good for mankind? By it's very definition, it puts the ownership, management, and control of the means of production and distribution in the hands of the government. It removes private ownership, which the Bible advocates, (You shall not steal.) It takes away many, sometimes all, freedoms. It enslaves men and bankrupts countries. Look at Venezuela. Margaret Thatcher nailed it: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Historically, the leaders of Socialist countries, always take the people's money (like Judas) and do with it whatever they want. As many have said, it never works.

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Homer
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Re: Socialism

Post by Homer » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:02 pm

We might think of the earliest Christians portrayed in Acts as practicing socialism but that was very different. They were freely sharing their assets out of brotherly love whereas all the socialist systems today appear to rely on forced confiscation.

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Re: Socialism

Post by Singalphile » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:27 pm

I don't see that the attitude of Judas is relevant to socialism ... or capitalism, for that matter. After all, he wanted to sell the perfume. I don't thikn he was advocating governmental involvement or control of goods or production or whatever.

... not that I favor socialism at all.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: Socialism

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:40 pm

Hi Dwight, you wrote:I paint all socialism as evil.
That's too bad. Not all socialism is evil.
When and where has there ever been socialism that has been good for mankind?
As Homer pointed out—in the early church. Also among the Hutterian communities of today. They have a system of communalism in which all goods are held in common. I lived in a Hutterite community for 3 years, not as a member, but as a school teacher. I loved it!

I also live in a socialist country—Canada. It is listed among the 10 most socialist countries in the world. The ten are:
China, Denmark, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, New Zealand, Belgium

China is a Communist country. None of the others are. In what way are these countries bad for mankind? Many of the socialist programs are very good for mankind.
By it's very definition, it puts the ownership, management, and control of the means of production and distribution in the hands of the government.


Untrue. By its very definition it provides equal opportunity for all.
In Canada we have socialized medical service. EVERYONE has access to the doctors, medicine, surgeries, etc. without cost to the individual. By contrast, in United States, many people die because they cannot afford to pay for the medical care they need.
It removes private ownership, which the Bible advocates, (You shall not steal.)
The Canadian government have not removed the things that I own. True, income taxes are higher in socialist countries in order to provide socialist programs such as medical care for all.
It takes away many, sometimes all, freedoms.
Name a freedom that has been taken away in Canada, but which you have in your country.
It enslaves men...
Strange. I don't feel like a slave. No government officials tell me what to do (except pay my taxes, which I am sure your government requires of you as well).
and bankrupts countries.
Name one of the ten socialist countries I listed above that have been bankrupted by socialism.
Paidion

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steve
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Re: Socialism

Post by steve » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:56 pm

When and where has there ever been socialism that has been good for mankind?
As Homer pointed out—in the early church. Also among the Hutterian communities of today. They have a system of communalism in which all goods are held in common.
Whether something seems good for mankind or not, it is to be rejected if it is unethical. By biblical standards, the wrongful confiscation of private priory by other human individuals or organizations is unethical. Government does not stand above this law of God (witness Ahab and Naboth's vineyard).

The government has every right to take what it owns, or to charge for its legitimate services—e.g., policing, military defense, and such things as the Bible says the government is commissioned by God to do. To extend its powers over citizens arbitrarily, to provide services not mandated by God, and to send citizens the bill—even if they object to the services forced upon them, is not ethical. This is not only true of government healthcare, but of government education and other services that can easily be provided by families or charitable groups.

Healthcare can be provided by voluntary co-ops (like Medi-Share, and similar societies), or by charitable organizations, or by healthcare professionals volunteering their services (as with Doctors Without Borders), without imposing involuntary, expensive systems on unwilling participants. You have free healthcare in Canada, but I have heard that there are long waiting lists for many procedures that one can get rather promptly in non-socialist countries. I have no firsthand knowledge of this, but if it is true, then socialized medicine may be responsible for more deaths from unavailable healthcare than are free market systems.

The early church and the Hutterites are irrelevant examples, since neither of them represent government-enforced compliance. If one does not wish to live in a common-purse community, he/she is free not to be a part of the Hutterite religion. Even the early church did not enforce a common purse, but (like many modern charities) they provided assistance through voluntary donors—and there were none among them who lacked.

Socialism is, by definition, a governmental economic system. You cannot opt out, unless you can somehow change your citizenship to leave your own country and start over in a non-socialistic one. Not everyone has this option.

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Paidion
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Re: Socialism

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:55 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:To extend its powers over citizens arbitrarily, to provide services not mandated by God, and to send citizens the bill—even if they object to the services forced upon them, is not ethical. This is not only true of government healthcare, but of government education and other services that can easily be provided by families or charitable groups.
Canada does not "extend its powers over citizens arbitrarily" (and I presume neither do the other socialist countries I listed, except possibly China). Canada is a democratic country, and until recently it had a Conservative government. The people of Canada, though their experience have continued to desire socialized health care, and to the best of my knowledge, the former Conservative government took no steps to change this, nor, as far as I know, has any Canadian requested that socialized health care be discontinued. We are all aware that we have a health system that is much better than anything in United States.
You have free healthcare in Canada, but I have heard that there are long waiting lists for many procedures that one can get rather promptly in non-socialist countries.


I have also heard of the long waiting lists. But it has not been the experience of my wife and me. We have always received prompt medical attention.
I have no firsthand knowledge of this, but if it is true, then socialized medicine may be responsible for more deaths from unavailable healthcare than are free market systems.
I am sure that that is not the case. We have acquaintances and relatives in United States who lost many thousands of dollars of their saving though heavy medical expenses, and I have heard about some who went bankrupt because of such expense.
The early church and the Hutterites are irrelevant examples, since neither of them represent government-enforced compliance. If one does not wish to live in a common-purse community, he/she is free not to be a part of the Hutterite religion. Even the early church did not enforce a common purse, but (like many modern charities) they provided assistance through voluntary donors—and there were none among them who lacked.
I agree that the early church was, and the Hutterite communities are, voluntary associations. People who are dissatisfied can leave these associations. But people can leave the democratic, socialist countries, too, if they are dissatisfied. Not many do, since not many are dissatisfied.
Socialism is, by definition, a governmental economic system. You cannot opt out, unless you can somehow change your citizenship to leave your own country and start over in a non-socialistic one. Not everyone has this option.
The democratic, socialist countries can change from socialism by voting in a non-socialist government. But how many do? I know of none. What does that tell you about the level of dissatisfaction?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Socialism

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:18 pm

I looked up "socialism" in the Webster's dictionary and there is no mention of equal opportunity for all. Sure, they tout that, but true socialist countries never produce that. Canada may not have taken away your freedoms, enslaved you, or taken your property, but that's because Canada is not a true socialist country. If it was 100% socialist, all of those would be true. You, yourself called it a socialized democracy. As far as being bankrupt, Canada has a huge debt. Yes, the U.S. debt is even larger, thanks to socialist ideas being practiced here.

Even the Scandinavian countries are no longer true socialist countries. Sweden, for example, went from the fourth-wealthiest country to the fourteenth-wealthiest country in just 23 years. Why? Because of socialism. At one time, their income tax approached 100%! Finally, Sweden recognized their problem and began to institute several capitalist reforms. The result is the GDP is growing, unemployment is falling, and the budget is heading into surplus. You can't credit socialism for reversing this trend. Socialism was the reason they even had this problem.

To see a specialist in Canada required an 18 week wait on average in 2013. I'm sure it's a longer wait now. No wonder many Canadians who have serious medical issues cross over here to the U.S. to get treated. No, it is not perfect here, especially now that Obamacare is here, but it is very convenient to have a neighboring country who can treat you, if you have a long wait in your own country.

This is why I support Trump, who has said that on Day One, he will do whatever he can to repeal socialized medicine, i.e. Obamacare, in our country.

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Homer
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Re: Socialism

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:19 pm

The democratic, socialist countries can change from socialism by voting in a non-socialist government. But how many do? I know of none. What does that tell you about the level of dissatisfaction?
Irregardless of the level of satisfaction you have the majority confiscating assets from the minority. That's what governments and taxes do, socialist or otherwise.

And the wait times for critical heart surgery (among other surgeries) in the Canadian medical system are well known:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ot ... -1.3481608

A friend of mine had chest discomfort while mowing his lawn and was sent to the cardiology clinic located in a hospital 30 miles from where he lived. They determined by angiogram he needed bypass surgery. He was not allowed to go home for the night and his bypass was done the next day. I have never heard of any significant wait time for heart surgery here. Another friend's grandmother lives in Canada. She had a stroke and needed to see a specialist; she was told to get in line.

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