Socialism

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steve
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Re: Socialism

Post by steve » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:38 pm

You have consistently mocked this idea
Please back up this accusation with a quote.
I couldn't read much of the post after this point. It seemed too disingenuous. The entire post (as far as I read, which was a few paragraphs beyond this statement) would have sufficed as "a quote."

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jeremiah
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Re: Socialism

Post by jeremiah » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:35 pm

I would point out that capitalism is not a man-made system, but a default where there is no government interference in the free exercise of stewardship and conscience.
:lol: :lol:

So says the zeitgeist. It is absolutely a man made system, and to further assert that it is God's own blessed favorite we've come up with—as some here have— is again laughable.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Homer
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Re: Socialism

Post by Homer » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:34 pm

Jeremiah,

Could you explain? It seems to me pure capitalism would be complete freedom economically. But it seems we do not have pure capitalism, there is a lot of government interference/intervention, even to the point of picking favorites.

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steve
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Re: Socialism

Post by steve » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:41 pm

Jeremiah,

What feature of the definition I cited of "capitalism" is, in your opinion, a human invention? Private ownership of property? Free trade? Freedom from government confiscation? Please explain. I am at a loss to discover at what your laughter is directed. Mockery without rebuttal is not impressive.

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Paidion
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Re: Socialism

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:54 pm

Homer, would you say that the Libertarian Party promotes "pure capitalism"?

Perhaps checking out their 2004 Party Platform would help you decide:

http://www.lpedia.org/2004_Libertarian_Party_Platform
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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dwight92070
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Re: Socialism

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:33 pm

Paidon,

It seems to me that more than enough evidence has been presented to clearly show that Socialism is not now, and never has been a good thing. I don't think you are not convinced, rather you don't want to be convinced. Your mind is made up and no amount of facts will change it.'

Steve,

Thanks for those excellent posts. I have never heard Socialism explained so clearly, and Capitalism too.

Dwight

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dwight92070
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Re: Socialism

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:45 am

Jeremiah,

Unfortunately, the zeitgiest (yes, I had to look up the definition) today is not that Capitalism is not a man-made system, but that Socialism, done right, is utopia on earth. I am also interested in knowing what parts of Capitalism were man-made. Steve has presented the evidence and the scripture to show that it is not.

Dwight

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Homer
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Re: Socialism

Post by Homer » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:25 am

Paidion,

I'm certainly no expert regarding what constitutes capitalism or what a purely capitalist system would be like, or what a purely socialist system would be like. But I am old enough to have seen what our welfare system, as practiced for many years, has done to the poor. I appears to me to have destroyed the family structure that God intended.

Socialized medicine is one subject that has been discussed. I am familiar somewhat with the effects of the system in the USA as compared to England. Several years ago I was diagnosed and treated for a form of lymphoma that initially affects the skin. I was not satisfied with the care I was receiving from a nearby dermatologist. On my own initiative, with no referral, I called the Oregon Health Sciences University dermatology clinic in Portland and inquired whether they had anyone who had experience with this disease. I was assured they did and given a prompt appointment to see him. I received excellent care and each time I called for another appointment I again was promptly seen, usually the next day. Could that be done in Canada?

During the many months of treatment I underwent I found a forum on the internet for persons with the disease I had. People from many parts of the world could post there and many were in England. I noticed how envious they were of the medical system in the USA and the in particular the much wider range of treatment options we have here and much prompter treatment received.

I assure you I am all for the poor being cared for just as promptly and expertly as the rest of society, but there is no need to lower the standards of the entire system to do that.

I realize the Canadian system provides cheaper prescription medications for the population. Here some are very expensive. But if all the world was like Canada, how many new and beneficial medications would we have? There is enormous expense and risk in developing and marketing a new drug. I believe the USA consumers are unfairly subsidizing the development of new treatments that the Canadians receive the benefit of.

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Paidion
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Re: Socialism

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:11 pm

Greetings Homer,
Hmmm... I thought perhaps the Libertarian Party would be pretty close to what you described as a purely Capitalist system. It allows for more individual freedom (at the expense of many) than any political party of which I have become aware.

I fail to see how your welfare system has destroyed family structure. Please explain. A good welfare system has enforced regulations that prevent people from taking advantage of it.

I'm glad you received adequate treatment for the lymphoma you contracted. If you don't mind my asking, what did the total treatment cost you?

You asked about Canada. If I need to see our family doctor, I simply phone the clinic at 8:30 in the morning when they open, and I will have an appointment the next day. When I've had to see a specialist, the clinic arranges it, though it may take a few weeks or a month to get in. However, in the case of an emergency one is taken care of immediately. I won't mention the details, but I was in a medical situation that needed immediate attention. The local hospital tried, but was unable to effect the necessary treatment. I was immediately transported to Winnipeg by medical helicopter to the largest health centre in the province, received the required treatment, spent an overnight there, and was transported back to the local hospital the next day in a small medical plane, in which hospital I spent several days until total recovery.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Paidion
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Re: Socialism

Post by Paidion » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:37 pm

I would point out that capitalism is not a man-made system, but a default where there is no government interference in the free exercise of stewardship and conscience.
Several have slapped Jeremiah's wrists for finding this statement laughable. Well, I will go further. It is not only laughable; it is ludicrous. If that were what capitalism is, then capitalism does not exist, since there is no country in the world in which there in no government interference in the lives of people.

Here are some other statements about capitalism that I think are closer to the truth. Perhaps the same people who pounced upon Jeremiah will pounce again, when you read this:
The word capitalism is now quite commonly used to describe the social system in which we now live. It is also often assumed that it has existed, if not forever, then for most of human history. In fact, capitalism is a relatively new social system.
... capitalism came into existence a couple of hundred years ago.

In capitalism, the motive for producing goods and services is to sell them for a profit, not to satisfy people's needs. The products of capitalist production have to find a buyer, of course, but this is only incidental to the main aim of making a profit, of ending up with more money than was originally invested. This is not a theory that we have thought up but a fact you can easily confirm for yourself by reading the financial press. Production is started not by what consumers are prepared to pay for to satisfy their needs but by what the capitalists calculate can be sold at a profit. Those goods may satisfy human needs but those needs will not be met if people do not have sufficient money.

The profit motive is not just the result of greed on behalf of individual capitalists. They do not have a choice about it. The need to make a profit is imposed on capitalists as a condition for not losing their investments and their position as capitalists. Competition with other capitalists forces them to reinvest as much of their profits as they can afford to keep their means and methods of production up to date.

As you will see, we hold that it is the class division and profit motive of capitalism that is at the root of most of the world's problems today, from starvation to war, to alienation and crime. Every aspect of our lives is subordinated to the worst excesses of the drive to make profit. In capitalist society, our real needs will only ever come a poor second to the requirements of profit.
—quoted from the website of World Socialist Movement
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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