I wanted to ask Steve about revival and why he felt it had to end but in trying to put my thoughts together about it I have been finding there is a lot more involved than I had previously thought.
Now, if I understand Steve’s position correctly and please correct me if I’m wrong, he feels that revival must end because if we were in a constant state of revival there would be no need for faith or perhaps not as much of an opportunity for faith as there is when there is no revival going on. Now this has to happen every generation or so to give the church a sort of spiritual shot in the arm to give us some life again but then after a while the fervor must die down so that our faith is not in the enthusiasm or miraculous things that come with revival but in God Himself. This has been shown to be true not from the scriptures but from revival history and the conclusions which are drawn from what even a simple study of church history would cause us to deduce.
I feel we should lean less on experience and more on the promises we find in scripture for the standard we should expect out the Christian life:
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Isaiah 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore the zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Daniel 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
Notice these all show constant growth not growth and death and growth or growth, stagnation, growth.
On the personal side of things what does the Bible say is the destiny of the believer? Is it to be revival then discipline?
Rom8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren
So the Bible says that we are to be made like Christ… having read about His life once or twice I can’t say I can find a time when He was not bringing revival with Him. If that is therefore not what we are seeing in our lives maybe we are not living up to the standard of scripture but instead being conformed to this world...
This then begs the question; why do we not see revivals last beyond the first generation? I think in order to answer that we have to look more to who we are than who God is. We find it east to trust in God in times of lack and times of trouble but we soon forget God in times of blessing and abundance. Paul said “Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.” (Philippians 4:11-13) and because of his reliance on Christ in both “humble means” and “prosperity” Paul too was blessed with revival all the days of his life.
I think the most obvious example of what not to do in revival would have to be that of David and Solomon. Solomon, came into great abundance and blessing from what his father David had done in his life and in spite of being blessed with wisdom beyond any other he became enthralled with His blessings. This caused not only the end of the revival but the splitting of the kingdom and countless forms of occult being brought in to Israel. Solomon abandoned God and trusted in himself and his wisdom for the prosperity of his kingdom and the glory God had given it faded just as the revivals in history have after people begin to follow the structure and tradition instead of the God those who began the revival followed.
Now obviously this is way oversimplified but maybe something to get some gears spinning and perhaps start a few conversations about it and what we can do to see another move of God here and now!!!
Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
revival lifespan
Re: revival lifespan
Hi Andre,
Thanks for posting this. You wrote:
I believe the agricultural cycle is often used as an image of spiritual growth and progress, whether in references to ploughing up the "fallow ground," or the references to "the early and the latter rain," or to the "harvest," that are so often used metaphorically in the prophets, or in parables of Jesus. A farmer may find his wealth building year-by-year, but still only harvest during a certain season of the year, while other seasons are occupied with soil preparation, or even with just waiting (James 5:7).
I think of revival as something impacting the whole church (at least in some geographical region). Paul did not see that kind of revival all his life, since he was frustrated by the carnality of the Corinthian church, was amazed that the Galatian churches had departed from the gospel to legalism within weeks of his departure from them, and complained to Timothy that all the Christians in Asia had abandoned him, along with some of his trusted workers. I don't think he would describe that as continuous revival. The letters to the seven churches in Revelation similarly fail to depict the churches of the apostolic age as experiencing continuous revival.
Many writers and preachers speak optimistically about the possibilities of continuous revival, but history (including the first-century history) has not vindicated their theories.
Thanks for posting this. You wrote:
I am not sure that these verses predict constant growth. They could as easily represent net or overall growth. That is, over the course of the centuries, the kingdom increases (or over the course of our lives we are transformed), but evident improvement is not necessarily seen from one week to the next or one year to the next.2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Isaiah 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore the zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Daniel 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
Notice these all show constant growth not growth and death and growth or growth, stagnation, growth.
I believe the agricultural cycle is often used as an image of spiritual growth and progress, whether in references to ploughing up the "fallow ground," or the references to "the early and the latter rain," or to the "harvest," that are so often used metaphorically in the prophets, or in parables of Jesus. A farmer may find his wealth building year-by-year, but still only harvest during a certain season of the year, while other seasons are occupied with soil preparation, or even with just waiting (James 5:7).
I wonder if he would say this? I don't know. Sometimes we have an image of the early Christians based upon what we think should have been the case. I do think that a man can stay close to God throughout his lifetime‚ and that this is normative, but I don't refer to a man remaining faithful as a "revival."Paul too was blessed with revival all the days of his life.
I think of revival as something impacting the whole church (at least in some geographical region). Paul did not see that kind of revival all his life, since he was frustrated by the carnality of the Corinthian church, was amazed that the Galatian churches had departed from the gospel to legalism within weeks of his departure from them, and complained to Timothy that all the Christians in Asia had abandoned him, along with some of his trusted workers. I don't think he would describe that as continuous revival. The letters to the seven churches in Revelation similarly fail to depict the churches of the apostolic age as experiencing continuous revival.
Many writers and preachers speak optimistically about the possibilities of continuous revival, but history (including the first-century history) has not vindicated their theories.
Re: revival lifespan
but we can pray and hope! i personally want to experience it. the least I can do is expect it.
TK
TK
Re: revival lifespan
That particular scripture in James is used not to show the Christian life but our waiting on “the coming of the Lord.” And yes, the picture of a farmer makes sense but the picture for the Christian is prophesied in Amos:
Amos 9:12-13
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“ When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
More than that Jesus’ rejection of Israel as depicted by the fig tree shows that not only must we bear fruit “in season” but also “out of season.”
Mark 11:12-14
Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
And His disciples heard it.
We are, as Christians, to be constantly bearing fruit. Not just natural fruit but supernatural fruit as well. So even if we don’t see ourselves as consistently growing we, as Christians, are still constantly benefiting and expanding the kingdom of God.
I want to make it clear here that I am under no delusions about the first century church and I feel no need to “get back to the book of acts” or anything like that. I understand that they were imperfect just as we are and that they were still trying to figure out how to serve and grow closer to God. The book of Acts is a starting point and we ought to be building on that not necessarily trying to get back to it.
Now as for Paul; you said,
I hardly think we can call the emotions Paul felt for those who were backsliding as a lack of any form. Jesus after all wept for Jerusalem and what He knew was going to happen to them. All Paul was doing when he showed those emotions was expressing the Father’s heart.
Amos 9:12-13
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“ When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
More than that Jesus’ rejection of Israel as depicted by the fig tree shows that not only must we bear fruit “in season” but also “out of season.”
Mark 11:12-14
Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
And His disciples heard it.
We are, as Christians, to be constantly bearing fruit. Not just natural fruit but supernatural fruit as well. So even if we don’t see ourselves as consistently growing we, as Christians, are still constantly benefiting and expanding the kingdom of God.
I want to make it clear here that I am under no delusions about the first century church and I feel no need to “get back to the book of acts” or anything like that. I understand that they were imperfect just as we are and that they were still trying to figure out how to serve and grow closer to God. The book of Acts is a starting point and we ought to be building on that not necessarily trying to get back to it.
Now as for Paul; you said,
I absolutely agree with you on the definition of revival. And Paul regardless of where he was saw this happening. Wherever he preached, be it a town, the Areopagus, or on house arrest in Rome he made an impact for the kingdom. The failure for people to sustain that was not a failure on Paul’s part but on those who did not remain true to the message he brought. All Paul’s life shows is that a faithful Christian should be constantly impacting the world around him regardless of his circumstances and that when the catalyst for the revival is removed (in this case Paul) that it is up to those who heard the message to sustain revival. This then I say points the finger back to us and forces us to ask “Is there revival going on around us?” and if there is not, then why not?I think of revival as something impacting the whole church (at least in some geographical region).
I hardly think we can call the emotions Paul felt for those who were backsliding as a lack of any form. Jesus after all wept for Jerusalem and what He knew was going to happen to them. All Paul was doing when he showed those emotions was expressing the Father’s heart.
neither do I but I do believe that a person being faithful will cause revival wherever they go. Rather than going through ups and downs Paul was in constant growth. In fact, had he been allowed to continue on the path he was on he would have been “exalted above measure.” God, in His mercy, had to give Paul a “messenger of Satan” to prevent this from happening. I can hardly wait for the day when God tells me, “Andre, you know too much and I’ve shared so many secrets with you that you would be able to live a victorious life on your own without trusting in me so to keep you reliant on me I’m going to allow this messenger to torment you…”but I don't refer to a man remaining faithful as a "revival.”
Re: revival lifespan
You are talking about an individual Christian bearing fruit. I agree that every Christian is required to be fruitful. The fruit of the Spirit is always "in season." However, we should not confuse the continuous existence of some faithful Christians with the phenomenon that is usually called a "revival." I know many Christians who consistently exhibit good fruit—but I am not seeing revival in the church. Are you?We are, as Christians, to be constantly bearing fruit. Not just natural fruit but supernatural fruit as well. So even if we don’t see ourselves as consistently growing we, as Christians, are still constantly benefiting and expanding the kingdom of God.
Where is this reported? I find Paul having very sparse impact in Athens. He didn't do very well in Jerusalem or Damascas either, as near as I can gather from the record. Where is the biblical evidence of revival taking place in Troas, or Philippi, or Cyprus? I think we may, at times, be in danger of reading into the Bible "truths" that we believe ought to be true, but for which the Bible actually provides no evidence at all.I absolutely agree with you on the definition of revival. And Paul regardless of where he was saw this happening.
This sounds more like wishful thinking than biblical teaching. Don't you know any faithful people at all? Where is this revival that is theoretically caused wherever they go? I am not seeing it.I do believe that a person being faithful will cause revival wherever they go.
Re: revival lifespan
You are right… teach me to use sweeping generalizations.Where is this reported? I find Paul having very sparse impact in Athens.
Paul did not and neither did Christ for that matter. Christ was rejected and nearly thrown off a cliff at Nazareth (Luke 4:16-30) and Paul obviously had his fair share of opposition. In Athens specifically it seems from the account that he only preached there while he was waiting for Silas and Timothy because “his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.” Damascus is where he was cutting his teeth so to speak and I think he finally got the message right because they tried to kill him. Bringing up Jerusalem isn’t even fair; you can’t expect for anyone to have success there. Success there is keeping from being martyred or maybe being martyred, you pick. So now to digress a bit; I’m getting the picture that when you bring the Gospel message (the message of the kingdom of God and Christ the King) you will get one of 2 reactions: people will enter the kingdom or desire to kill you. Based on the Biblical account, that is what we should expect from the Gospel message being preached.
I’m assuming you know you are cheating here. There is never any record of Paul even preaching in Troas. In Cyprus I think it’s safe to say there was quite an impact made since they caused enough of a stir to receive an audience with the proconsul and made a believer out of him. In Philippi again there is not much directly said about the impact they had but I think it’s a safe inference that they were making quite an impact because when they were taken to the authorities it was said “These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city.” Even in the prison their reputation precedes them since the jailor knew their message and without them having to preach to him after the earthquake the record says he “Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” the jailor knew the scuttlebutt about these men that they had a message he even knew it was regarding salvation of some sort. At the least we can say their message had gotten around to the point where the average person had a general awareness of it. Not revival by any means but definitely the beginnings of it.Where is the biblical evidence of revival taking place in Troas, or Philippi, or Cyprus?
I know many Christians who consistently exhibit good fruit—but I am not seeing revival in the church. Are you?
Let me knock both these out here since they are essentially the same issue.This sounds more like wishful thinking than biblical teaching. Don't you know any faithful people at all? Where is this revival that is theoretically caused wherever they go? I am not seeing it.
How many faithful Christians are expecting revival as a result of their actions? Without getting too into it (at least not yet) how often in the gospels do we find Christ saying “according to your faith” and other such sayings placing the responsibility on us. You and I both know we are the ones given authority here on earth and God desires us to be His agents for change in the world.
“My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.” This is once again the problem here. Before the reformation how many people do you think were truly saved? Far less than today I’m sure. Why? Poor teaching. Before Azusa how many were empowered by Holy Spirit? Far less than today. Before the Latter Rain movement how many people moved in prophecy? Far less than today. Before any of these movements can we say there was nobody that was saved, baptized in Holy Spirit or moving in prophecy? Of course not that would be foolish. But it was far more a divine act of God and the exception not the rule. Today however it is something we expect from applying the proper means. Salvation: grace through faith; baptism with Holy Spirit: laying on of hands; prophecy: intimacy with God. There is a proper mean that gets us the desired end. You sow the right seed you get the right harvest. So what is the proper means for revival? Preaching the Gospel. If we preach the Gospel we should expect to see revival or, and this is something I’m adding in based on the Biblical account, to be rejected and persecuted.
Now to tie it all in: Why do we have so many faithful and so few revivals? Because the faithful are not expecting revival as the natural result of their preaching (i.e. no faith for it). Just as before other revelations became commonplace there were other areas lacking. Not because the promises were not there or because the faithful were not there but because there was no understanding that there were certain blessings which are to be expected as a result of our faithfulness.
So how do we get faith for something? 1. Find a promise of God, 2. Believe that promise. As far as I can see Matthew 28:19 is about as great a promise as we can get for the promise of revival (or maybe Psalm 2:8 they are both good). How can we be expected to disciple nations without first having had a revival to bring the nation into the kingdom? So now that we have a promise to believe we can have faith and expect revival from our application of the proper means (i.e. teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you). When we are teaching the commandments of Christ and don’t see revival as a result either we have been persecuted out of the area (and are consequently no longer teaching there) or we are not applying the promises of God (using faith) to see the harvest promised (baptism of nations) based on the seed we planted (preaching the gospel).
BTW Steve i'm diggin the haircut
Re: revival lifespan
Paul may or may not have preached in Troas, but he did go there, and we have no record of revival breaking out as a result of his presence. Though Troas seems to have been primarily the jumping-off point for further westward progress, it seems unlikely that he said nothing about Christ in that city (Acts 16:8).
In the other references you gave, we read of people getting saved and delivered from demons. We also read of the opposition and hostility of the locals. None of these records speak of anything resembling what historians call "revival." Perhaps we are talking past each other by using the word revival differently. If you are saying that when someone gets converted, that is a revival, then I would have to agree that such things did happen in most of the recorded places Paul visited. That is, no doubt the reason for their being recorded. However, I am using the word revival in the more conventional sense of its historical usage.
In the other references you gave, we read of people getting saved and delivered from demons. We also read of the opposition and hostility of the locals. None of these records speak of anything resembling what historians call "revival." Perhaps we are talking past each other by using the word revival differently. If you are saying that when someone gets converted, that is a revival, then I would have to agree that such things did happen in most of the recorded places Paul visited. That is, no doubt the reason for their being recorded. However, I am using the word revival in the more conventional sense of its historical usage.
Re: revival lifespan
Maybe I wasn’t too clear with my last post lol that’s understandable I was a bit distracted while I wrote it… I’m not pushing the thought that Paul’s mere presence brought revival I’m saying that where we preach the kingdom with power as demonstrated in the Bible there will be 2 reactions: 1 acceptance and conversions, 2 rejection and persecution. I’m also saying that there is evidence in the scripture of at least the beginnings of revival in the places where it is recorded that Paul preached (except perhaps Mars Hill which from my reading seems to be more of an act from his frustration with the city and less a desire to spread the word).
As for Troas, there is even less Biblical evidence that Paul preached there than there is for revivals in Philippi and Galatia. So for the sake of consistency we should either say yes, he preached there and yes there was revival in Philippi and Galatia or no there was no preaching there and no revivals either. But let’s be honest with ourselves the Bible doesn’t go into it so we would be guessing either way.
Rather than go too far on with the specific topic of Paul I want to get back to the main point of this thread which is sustainable revival. And maybe I went about this in the wrong way directly attacking your view on it. The only reason I did was because you had brought it up while speaking at my church and I wanted to address what was said since that is what brought up the topic for me anyhow. If you felt attacked I’m sorry I didn’t mean to attack you.
Maybe we should start at the beginning since we need revival before we can sustain a revival. Do you believe a revival is always a sovereign act of God? Or do we have anything to do with them and if so what?
I say we should go about it the same way we would any spiritual blessing. Find the promise in the Bible or through revelation from God and apply faith to His promise. Our application of faith would then produce the fruit i.e. the revival God promised.
As for Troas, there is even less Biblical evidence that Paul preached there than there is for revivals in Philippi and Galatia. So for the sake of consistency we should either say yes, he preached there and yes there was revival in Philippi and Galatia or no there was no preaching there and no revivals either. But let’s be honest with ourselves the Bible doesn’t go into it so we would be guessing either way.
Rather than go too far on with the specific topic of Paul I want to get back to the main point of this thread which is sustainable revival. And maybe I went about this in the wrong way directly attacking your view on it. The only reason I did was because you had brought it up while speaking at my church and I wanted to address what was said since that is what brought up the topic for me anyhow. If you felt attacked I’m sorry I didn’t mean to attack you.
Maybe we should start at the beginning since we need revival before we can sustain a revival. Do you believe a revival is always a sovereign act of God? Or do we have anything to do with them and if so what?
I say we should go about it the same way we would any spiritual blessing. Find the promise in the Bible or through revelation from God and apply faith to His promise. Our application of faith would then produce the fruit i.e. the revival God promised.
Re: revival lifespan
Andre,
I would be interested where you are seeing the biblical promises of revival. I see historical cases of revival, but I am not sure what scriptures could be cited as promises that revivals will come at any particular time or place. Jonah's preaching produced the greatest revival in history (repentance of 100% of the citizens of one of the largest pagan cities in the world), yet, who can say that Jonah received this revival due to his good motives, prayerfulness or pureness of his gospel (he actually presented no gospel)?
Many historical revivals were preceded by prayer, repentance and anointed preaching. However, who can say whether these things themselves were or were not evidences that a revival had begun in the hearts of those praying, repenting and preaching? In other words, we could see these activities as appearing earlier than the other mighty manifestations of a revival, but just try to get Christians interested in praying and repenting when God is not moving them to do these things. If you get enough people acting that way, you are already seeing a revival, it seems to me.
I would be interested where you are seeing the biblical promises of revival. I see historical cases of revival, but I am not sure what scriptures could be cited as promises that revivals will come at any particular time or place. Jonah's preaching produced the greatest revival in history (repentance of 100% of the citizens of one of the largest pagan cities in the world), yet, who can say that Jonah received this revival due to his good motives, prayerfulness or pureness of his gospel (he actually presented no gospel)?
Many historical revivals were preceded by prayer, repentance and anointed preaching. However, who can say whether these things themselves were or were not evidences that a revival had begun in the hearts of those praying, repenting and preaching? In other words, we could see these activities as appearing earlier than the other mighty manifestations of a revival, but just try to get Christians interested in praying and repenting when God is not moving them to do these things. If you get enough people acting that way, you are already seeing a revival, it seems to me.
Re: revival lifespan
All the Jonah reference proves is that God retains the prerogative to create a revival at any time He desires. And let’s be honest; that is where most revivals come from. You have debated with people enough to know that if the text doesn’t plainly state your viewpoint they will not see it if they don’t want to (sometimes even when it does say what you are arguing they still refuse to see it). And since revival is more a term we use to describe the phenomenon of a mass influx of souls into the kingdom and not so much a biblically defined term I’m going to try going about it another way based on logic from your point of view on other topics…
Now we agree that essentially everything done for good is empowered by the grace of God. So I’m going to just keep that as a general assumption so we need not bother with repeating it at every step of the way.
Now, how, in your understanding does a person come to salvation?
Now we agree that essentially everything done for good is empowered by the grace of God. So I’m going to just keep that as a general assumption so we need not bother with repeating it at every step of the way.
Now, how, in your understanding does a person come to salvation?
-agreedIn other words, we could see these activities as appearing earlier than the other mighty manifestations of a revival, but just try to get Christians interested in praying and repenting when God is not moving them to do these things. If you get enough people acting that way, you are already seeing a revival, it seems to me.