The Meaning of Faith (Pistis)

[Guest]

Christopher,

James 2:20-26
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV

The "works" he is talking about is Abrahams obedience, I believe. And why was he obedient? Because he had the faith to trust God.

When Abraham offered up Isaac, it was not by a different faith than that which he exhibited in Gen. 15:6 when "he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." There is not a hint in scripture that Abraham's faith prior to his offering Isaac was insufficient. In Genesis 15, God did not expect Abraham to do anything but believe.

James and Paul (Romans 4:16ff) both appeal to Gen. 15:6. It is beyond doubt that Paul based Abraham's justification on the principle of faith. Is there a conflict between Paul and James? Did James base justification on works or a combination of faith and works? I believe James is saying that Abraham's actions in offering Isaac showed that he believed God could do what to us is impossible, Isaac would be brought back from the dead. His works had the meaning of faith. Had Abraham refused, this action would have had the meaning of unbelief.

Consider Hebrews 11:17-19: "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promise offered up his only son, of whom it was said, 'in Isaac your seed shall be called', accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense."

Here we see Abraham's actions are assigned the meaning of faith.

I guess I'm still not seeing how actions have meaning since the same action can have completely opposite motives. If two Christians get baptized, one can be doing it for God, and the other could be doing it to please someone else (parent, fiance, etc). So, how does the action have the meaning of faith?

Exactly my point! Only God knows the meaning of our baptism or anything else we do, just as Jesus knew the meaning behind the prayers of the Pharisee and the tax collector, Luke 18:9-14. But actions do have meaning.

In my mind, words have meanings, but actions seem to be an external clue of what is in the heart, not necessarily a guaranteed indicator.

Right again. But we recognize that a person's "body language" has meaning; we just can't reliably determine what the meaning is. A frown may mean displeasure over something or it may mean I have indigestion!

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

Do you believe or are you saying as in Abraham and His son, if we fail to believe what was suppose to happen under God it will not happen? So if we believe God has called us to do something and we walk out to do it, but say we miss the mark in our actions it will not come to pass?

Or it can fail also by our wrong actions( even though meant well, not out and out sin choices) or our faith isn't strong enough and we waver.


I am also wondering about this because I have been hearing alot more about the faith movement lately and I am trying to undertsand how they would see this situation . Any help out there? Glow

[Guest]

Glow,

I'm not sure I understand your question but I think you are referring to the "word of faith" teaching? I do not believe their ideas have much, if any, validity. To my mind, faith has no efficacy (effectiveness) apart from the object of that faith, i.e. the one believed in.

I hope this helps.

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

thanks homer,

I realized after I entered my blurb ! it came across very confusing. I should have collected my thoughts better.

Yes, that is the group whom I was speaking of. My quandry with some associated with them is are they all off.

I read Joyce Meyer and I believe I have learned some things well from her being that she always has scripture and I focus on that and her comments secondary. But what I pick up from them and her at times is the outcome of what you are stepping out into with God in faith, is the outcome is based on your determination to speak right and not doubt.

Almost seems to me like we are suppose to have some "magical powers" in doing that.I know there are scriptures galore about our tongues and what we say etc. but this is different.

If you fail in this you will not basically "pull off Gods will". I don't know if you understand or agree with me here. But that is one of the things I gleaned from it. If so it seems to me they put to much power in a persons individual "actions' being perfect vs having faith that if you stay right with God and try to walk with him in love your best Gods will "will" be done.

Am I looking at this to simplistic? thanks Glow

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

I've pondered what you've written and I can't see any substantial difference in what you and I have actually said, just the way we've phrased it.

I think we're both saying that saving faith does something (it obeys). I'm still puzzled over your terminology, but I don't think we're really saying anything significantly different here.

You wrote:

James and Paul (Romans 4:16ff) both appeal to Gen. 15:6. It is beyond doubt that Paul based Abraham's justification on the principle of faith. Is there a conflict between Paul and James? Did James base justification on works or a combination of faith and works? I believe James is saying that Abraham's actions in offering Isaac showed that he believed God could do what to us is impossible, Isaac would be brought back from the dead. His works had the meaning of faith. Had Abraham refused, this action would have had the meaning of unbelief.

I think James and Paul are 100% in agreement with each other. The faith was accredited to Abraham as righteousness. That faith was demonstrated through his works (obedience). However, that doesn't make faith and works the same thing. Remember, James said that his "faith was working together with his works". Faith isn't made perfect by working together with faith, it's done so by working together with works. When two things are working together, that makes them two distinct things by default, doesn't it? So faith and faithfulness cannot be the same thing if they are working together. Am I wrong?

It's not faith + works = justification , I think James is saying it's faith + works = justification proven (faith made perfect).

Like you said, righteousness was accounted to Abraham before his act of obedience. His obedience was the fulfillment of what was already true, that he had a faith that God considered righteous.

Again, I fail to see the relationship between this and the assertion that one is not justified until he has been baptized. (I can't use the term "baptismal regeneration", SamIam took that away from me ).

I still hold that baptism demonstrates a truth that already exists, faith that produces obedience.

[Guest]

Homer,

Many years ago I read a book titled "What the Bible says about Covenant" by Mont Smith. As I recall, he surveyed the covenants recorded in the Bible and presented our relationship with God in terms of covenant. I since lost track of the book. I remember it as a good read.

I'm curious if we should view the meaning of "faith" in the context of a covenant. Perhaps faith includes a pledge of loyalty in addition to belief and trust.

I don't recall any scripture that demands this, but perhaps it is an unstated assumption of those who understand that their relationship with God is a covenant.

[Guest]

I think for the true believer that is a beautiful, additional way to look at it. Glow

[Guest]

SamIam,

You said:

Perhaps faith includes a pledge of loyalty in addition to belief and trust.

Would it be more accurate to say faith incudes not only a pledge of loyalty but actual loyalty? "Faithful 'till death...".?

[Guest]

Would it be more accurate to say faith incudes not only a pledge of loyalty but actual loyalty? "Faithful 'till death...".?

Or, as James put it, a true faith is one that works.
D.

[Guest]

Greetings Homer,

Regarding you question concerning faith and faithfulness; it has always been difficult for me to make any distinction between the two. In my mind they are fibers in the same thread.

Consider the second time God provided water from the rock (Ex 20). God’s command to Moses was speak to the rock - Moses' action was to strike the rock just as the previous time. God’s response was:

“And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.”

God viewed Moses’ disobedience as unbelief. If Moses would have simply spoken to the rock as God commanded – would not his obedience be viewed as belief?

Further, when Moses disobeyed the command of the Lord he did not hold God as being holy before the children of Israel. This one “act of unbelief” cost him the Promised Land.

In Hebrews 11:6 we read:
“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

In my opinion the writer reveals exactly what faith is. Those who come to God must

1. believe He is – certainty of heart
2. believe He Rewards – Trust
3. Diligently seek Him – Fidelity

Faith is a certainty of heart manifested in trust and fidelity.

Does God reward the untrusting and the half-hearted? Could one of these elements be neglected and faith remain intact?

Anywho, just some thoughts – Blessings,
d