Church discipline

[Guest]

What is church discipline and how do you see it described in the Bible?

When should the elders/leaders of a local part of the Body of Christ become involved in a rebuke versus individual members?

[Guest]

Schoel, It seems no one wants to tackle this. I will kind of give it a shot in a condensed form. We as brethren should try and to restore one in love. If they continue in sin then we are to go to them one on one. If they continue without repentence then we are to take a witness with us. If they they do not turn and continue on, then as a last resort we are to take them before the body of Christ. Then if they do not repent and continue on in sin, as a last resort we are to not to have any fellowship with them and cast them out. Church disciplene is hardly ever practiced in the modern day church because of the judging attitude so many people take. I have only seen it go to the last resort once in 23 years as a pastor.

[Guest]

Schoel, I see church discipline as being a relational thing.

Since some (most?) people are so good at hiding sin or faking how they really feel, I think you have to know someone pretty well to know when he/she has fallen (particularly in the realm of more subjective sins like greed or pride). I think at that point, the words of a brother or sister who truly care about that person will carry more weight and influence than some distant church leader who's only there when you mess up. (This was my experience growing up. The only times you talked to the pastor was when you were in trouble!)

I think for a church leader or elder to bear the responsibility for church discipline, they should be walking pretty closely with their brothers and sisters. This is just my opinion though. It always makes me uncomfortable to be chastened or given unsolicited "constructive criticism" by someone who doesn't know me well enough to know where I'm coming from or what my particular struggles are.

Just my two cents. I'm willing to talk this out with you if you'd like.

BTW, I once read that the definition of a godly leader would be who you'd most like to catch you when you totally messed up. I think that was interesting, and wouldn't apply to any of the pastors I had growing up in the IC. However, it would apply to the men I consider my pastors now.

[Guest]

Schoel, It seems no one wants to tackle this. I will kind of give it a shot in a condensed form. We as brethren should try and to restore one in love. If they continue in sin then we are to go to them one on one. If they continue without repentence then we are to take a witness with us. If they they do not turn and continue on, then as a last resort we are to take them before the body of Christ. Then if they do not repent and continue on in sin, as a last resort we are to not to have any fellowship with them and cast them out. Church disciplene is hardly ever practiced in the modern day church because of the judging attitude so many people take. I have only seen it go to the last resort once in 23 years as a pastor.

Thanks for your input.

Is your scriptural basis for this Matthew 18:15-17?
I ask because the process you described (one on one, go with a friends, bring it before the church) is the same as is described in the Matthew text.

That teaching by Jesus seems to start organically between fellow members of the body of Christ and escalate to the leadership/community as a last resort. It also seems to imply relational conflict between people (...if your brother sins against you).

Is church discipline the elders or leaders responsibility or is it the responsibility of every member? Are there any other scriptures that can be brought to bear on the matter of church dispipline?

[Guest]

Schoel, I see church discipline as being a relational thing.

Since some (most?) people are so good at hiding sin or faking how they really feel, I think you have to know someone pretty well to know when he/she has fallen (particularly in the realm of more subjective sins like greed or pride). I think at that point, the words of a brother or sister who truly care about that person will carry more weight and influence than some distant church leader who's only there when you mess up. (This was my experience growing up. The only times you talked to the pastor was when you were in trouble!)

I think for a church leader or elder to bear the responsibility for church discipline, they should be walking pretty closely with their brothers and sisters. This is just my opinion though. It always makes me uncomfortable to be chastened or given unsolicited "constructive criticism" by someone who doesn't know me well enough to know where I'm coming from or what my particular struggles are.

Just my two cents. I'm willing to talk this out with you if you'd like.

BTW, I once read that the definition of a godly leader would be who you'd most like to catch you when you totally messed up. I think that was interesting, and wouldn't apply to any of the pastors I had growing up in the IC. However, it would apply to the men I consider my pastors now.

It's interesting that the NT church seemed built on personal relationships and church discipline probably had a more family-oriented approach rather than an organizational approach.

Even if I am approached by someone that doesn't know me very well, it seems that I should always be humble and receptive to what they have to say. It still could be God speaking to me through them, even if I would have preferred someone that I know more deeply and even if their heart isn't in the right place. All criticism should be taken honestly before God to see if it would be true.

Also, approaching someone with whom you have a relationship can make the approached less defensive and would provide more incisive and true comments.

I'm reminded of Jesus' statement in Luke 6:37-42:

37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

39 He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.


I guess one who approaches another must be ready to discover sin in his life as well.
Also, the humility or pride with which you approach another will be returned.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Have you seen church discipline used inappropriately? How and why?


***Sidebar***
The reason I started this thread is that I'm encountering some issues with church discipline and the manner in which it is applied at my local church. I want to make sure I understand what the Bible says about it.

[Guest]

my personal observation and suspicion in general is that the most common form of "church discipline" is for church members to crucify someone behind their back with malicious gossip, etc, instead of taking the more biblical (and courageous) approach and approaching the person directly. of course, the problem with this tactic (other than the fact that it is dastardly) is that no discipline on the supposed offender is accomplished at all, i.e it stirs everyone up except the person who may need disciplined.

TK

[Guest]

Schoel you asked,
[quote]Is church discipline the elders or leaders responsibility or is it the responsibility of every member? Are there any other scriptures that can be brought to bear on the matter of church dispipline?[quote]

Schoel, It is every members responsibilty and yes Matthew 18:15-17 is the main scripture for church disipline. but there are others. Restoring the brother in love. Judge not least you be judged and so on and so on. We should always consider the whole council of God and the words of Jesus in our decisions.

I have seen church discipline wrongly used many times. So many times individuals by pass the part about going to that individual themself.
Only when it gets to the bringing before the church. Then leaders can be involved in the decipline. Sometimes it could be a pastor or elder or church leaders as a witness but hopefully it won't come down to that

[Guest]

Hi Dave,

Well, you already know my experience regarding inappropriate discipline .

But I would say that I think the ultimate purpose of church discipline is expressed by Paul in 1 Cor 5:

1 Cor 5:5-6
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NKJV

I think it supposed to be reserved for habitual and destructive sinful behavior for the purpose of restoring a person to right standing with God. I think the sin should be specific enough to undeniably support scripturally. Vague accusations (rebellion, sins of "omission", etc.) are too subjective to discipline over IMO.

And I also think elders should be involved somewhat based on other things that Paul says:

2 Tim 2:24-26
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
NKJV

and...


Titus 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
NKJV

[Guest]

I'm reminded of Jesus' statement in Luke 6:37-42:

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven..."

In our day, this passage is often quoted to support the concept that we should not have church discipline. Many non-Christians try to use it to make us feel guilty if we assess any evil actions at all.

This is not the way Jesus meant it to be used. In the "sermon on the plain", he was addressing, not only the wider body of his own discipes, but "a great multitude of people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the seacoast of Tyre and Sidon." Doubtless there were a considerable number of hypocritical Pharisees in that number who often condemned others for things that they themselves practised.

Actually, Paul taught that churches ought to judge fellow disciples, and discipline them.

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you." When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life! I Corinthians 5:9-6:3 RSV