Women and authority

[Guest]

Steve,
Thank you and Paidion for answering my question re: 1 Timothy 2:12. I have been attending a Methodist church, teaching adult Sunday School while another man taught Bible study. He has the position that no man should sit in the class if a woman is leading the class or preaching during church service. In fact, he leaves if a woman teaches. Since the UM church has a more liberal view, the pastor and district superintendent will not permit him to teach. We have requested a meeting with the DS to discuss this issue.

I am moving from the area. The only other willing teacher has been a woman. There are 15-20 people attending on a VERY good morning but only 7 this past week. Our pastor is able to give a sermon for one hour on Sunday mornings and otherwise can't or won't serve the church further. I fully agree with your viewpoint Steve on Paul's teaching. I hear The Bible Answerman (10/28/05) and other teachers such as Alister McVeigh say that women can speak if gifted to do so and if they follow their "role". The consensus seems to be that women should not be head pastor. The 2 men I would consider to be the elders of our local church are in their 70's--one can't hear well and the other has had 4 strokes and can't express his thoughts. So, I assumed that we could say that the women are still under their authority and that the women were simply speaking the scripture lessons as approved by the elders. Maybe that is just an attempt to justify her teaching.

Having said all that, 1) should we not have a teaching service if no man is willing to do so? 2)since our shepherd has excluded one of the sheep for teaching Paul's doctrine but not that of the UM church, should the rest of us see that as a dangerous precedent? 3) do you have a working model of what the light of scripture would lead us to do in these situations?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

Mark

[Guest]

My husband walks out as well if a woman is teaching/preaching.
He is very respectful of women and does value my opinions at home.
He is NOT a macho kinda guy, we believe women do not need that authority in the church...They can teach younger women and children.
I agree!

[Guest]

Dear friend,
Does your husband then offer to teach next week's lesson so the women won't have to do so? I agree both with you and with Paul. I am sure the great apostle would be flabbergasted that so many men in the modern day would be so reluctant to take the opportunity to teach the resurrection to all that will hear!

The meek shall inherit the earth--but will they all be wearing hats?

Livingink

[_Steve]

Mark (livingink),

I have contemplated how to answer the three questions in your post at the top of this thread. It is difficult, because I have a hard time picturing myself in such a church (with such a pastor!), and imagining how I would react. I think I would try to reason from scripture with the pastor, and if he was obstinate (which I would fully expect to find him to be), I would leave the church (and encourage any true Christians I knew there to do the same).

On the other hand, I don't agree with the brother who would walk out in protest on a woman teacher, simply because she is a woman. What does that accomplish, besides making oneself look like an ingracious person, and embarrassing the woman teaching—a woman who might actually be a humble servant of Christ?

I will listen to a woman teach, and I often read good theological books and articles by women. I don't appreciate some things I have heard or read from female teachers/writer, but the same can be said about male teachers/writers.

I guess I live with the twin assumptions that the church, when organized, should be organized along biblical lines, but also that I am not likely to find such a church, and must somehow find fellowship among those groups that actually exist to be found, however I may disagree with their polity. Home churches can be good alternatives, though not all home churches are qualitatively superior to the groups for which they hope to provide a substitute.

I go to church every Sunday—somewhere or other. Not always the same place. I get something out of almost every church service I attend, though there is always something with which I disagree. I go primarily to be with God's people, and I find some of them in almost every congregation. I seldom expect to be trusted there enough to ever be asked to speak.

Sometimes you just have to survive spiritually on a starvation diet.

Here are your original questions:

1) should we not have a teaching service if no man is willing to do so?

If there is no man in the congregation who can teach others, one wonders why the group even exists! On the mission field, where there may be only one church in a region, and that a fledgling one, I could see a woman filling-in as teacher until some male converts reach a maturity level that permits them to teach (I think Elizabeth Elliott did this among the Aucas). But in any American city, there are hundreds of churches. Why should one exist where there is no qualified pastoral care? Why not just disband, and everyone find a real church to attend somewhere?

2) since our shepherd has excluded one of the sheep for teaching Paul's doctrine but not that of the UM church, should the rest of us see that as a dangerous precedent?

The United Methodist denomination (unlike the Free Methodists) is a very liberal denomination. I would not expect to find an ordained minister in the whole denomination who believes in Paul's teaching. It sounds like the whole denomination may be better served by selling-off its buildings and giving all their money to the poor...and then just disappearing.


3) do you have a working model of what the light of scripture would lead us to do in these situations?

There is no biblical precedent, because in biblical times, each city had only one church. You couldn't leave one church and join another in those days, as I would recommend doing today, in many cases. Nothing but blind loyalty to the denomination could keep me in a church like yours, and loyalty to a denomination is not a part of my life, so, in other words, I would be fellowshiping elsewhere very soon.

Those are just my thoughts, since you asked.

[Guest]

Steve,
This is one church building that the UM Church does not own so they have been reluctant to close it--they'll lose the Money. I appreciate your candor in the answers to both this subject and to my questions re: Timothy 2:12. This has been a pot gradually preparing to boil over in this little church for 2 years since the UM Church gave their wishy-washy response to the gay preacher issues. As the only willing male teacher I believe it is my responsibility to put forth the Biblical information on the subject of women and authority before I fully leave the church. I wonder what would have happened had our pastor been present when I asked the class if Jesus was a Pharisee starting his own school and being in the rank of Hillel and Shammai. Care to comment?
I see another place in the forum where you answered a question from G & J , I think, explaining the roles of bishop, deacon, elder, presbyter, etc. As I understand Paul's usage of teacher then I am assuming he meant bishop since they had to be able to teach and had to be a man (one wife). Teachers set out to conform the will of the pupil to that of God. Women could exhort, pray, preach in the sense of confirming Christian doctrine and prophesy in the sense of announcing information learned from a teacher. Does that sound anywhere close to what I could tell a Sunday School class accurately?

With regards,
Mark

[_Steve]

Hi Mark,

I would say that you are on solid ground in what you are inclined to say to the class. I do not see "prophesying" as "announcing information learned from a teacher." I understand prophesying more in the sense of speaking as an oracle or mouthpiece of God, giving a first-person message revealed by the Holy Spirit to the speaker (and judged by those listening). Women are clearly allowed to do this (Acts 2:17-18/Acts 21:9/ 1 Cor.11:5), as well as the other activities you mentioned.

[Guest]

When someone prophesies in the present day, I understand that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit but does it come through the reading of scripture necessarily? I hear many teachers say that there is no new prophecy and it must agree with something that has already been written. Others don't seem to agree with that. What is the clear way to see this?

respectfully,

livingink

(Steve was right. The conversation with the United Methodist District Sup. went poorly--it essentially ended when he said it doesn't matter what the Bible says; you have to go by the doctrine. That sent half the attendees to the exits)