What Must Be Believed To Be Saved?

[Paidion]

Regarding Jesus' request that God forgive those who were crucifying Him I have long believed what Jesus intended was that God would bring them to repentance so they could be forgiven.

That's how I, also, see it, Homer. I think Jesus' request to the Father was answered when Peter's hearers repented in response to Peter's instructions in Acts 2:38 which you quoted.

[dizerner]

Yes, I believe Jesus was asking for their forgiveness on this act alone. But I don't know how that affects anything? Killing the Son of God would have been a doozy of a sin it's true, but if forgiving them for that one act doesn't affect their ultimate salvation one whit, why ask for it?

I think Christians give forgiveness for a couple of reasons. Firstly, to guard their own heart against bitterness (because vengeance is God's work not ours). Secondly, as an act of intercession that might eventually bring the person to reconciliation with God (overcoming evil with good). I completely agree that Christ's prayer could have affected those soldiers, it would just later have to lead to a Gospel revelation for their salvation. Even as Paul was torturing Christians it is said their attitudes were "pricking" his heart. But although those Christians may have been forgiving Paul for imprisoning and killing their loved ones, Paul still had to eventually come to the revelation of the Cross for his own sins. First and foremost is our sins against God, not our brothers, just as I see our relation to the coming cosmic judgment you mention is like this:

Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

Priority number one: getting right with God. Consequences: severe. But then we have the human inter-relational side of forgiveness.

And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private... if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile.

The passage goes on to how Peter took this instruction, to clear up any misunderstanding that this means we actually don't forgive them (even though we change the way we view and treat them—no longer as a brother).

Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?"

So then Christ says indefinitely, and uses a parable to explain why.

'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me. 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?' "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. "So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

It would be like beating someone to death, but then having mercy on them and not continuing to beat them after they are long dead.

I guess your point here is that, degrees of hell don't make sense to you, because either way it's eternal suffering. I don't understand it either, but Scripture talks about "the lowest hell" and the "greater sin" so I accept it. Whatever a lesser hell is, it's somehow not as bad, even though we could argue it doesn't matter—obviously if God says it matters, then it does.

My point is that forgiveness must accomplish something for the forgiven. To me it appears as though there is some sort of "cosmic reckoning" for lack of a better term.

From a Divine perspective, forgiveness must accomplish something. From a human to human perspective, forgiveness is different. We can cleanse our own heart of anger, we can forgo enacting revenge, we can intercede for another; even the Pharisees astutely observed "No man can forgive sins except God alone" in the ultimate sense.

For instance, Stephen, as he was losing his life said:

“Lord, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep in death. (Acts 7:60)

Some translation render it as more of an "accounting" and many commentators feel this is the sense of it. The expression 'to one's account' is referenced many places in Scripture. The overall impression I walk away with is that that this "cosmic reckoning" I referenced earlier is the final judgment and that it takes into consideration more than a mere profession of faith.

Stephen didn't get all those killers' souls saved at that instant by that prayer. Now we know Saul was standing there, and I'm sure you've heard that martyrdom is the seed of the church, because of it's strong intercessory powers. But to say that merely by Stephen pronouncing "I forgive you guys for doing this," that all their souls were thereby instantly saved and right with God, well, I think it would take more than that. Even in Saul's life we see he needed a deeper personal repentance, and went on to preach just that for others.

[dizerner]

The underlying character of God's fairness and justice and mercy is at the heart of all of this.

I completely agree. But our own sense of justice seems more often than not to be an enemy of the Gospel message. A common objection when evangelizing among the irreligious, is that when you preach the knowledge of sin and salvation to them, they point out "but what about the pygmies in Africa" (or fill in the blank with whatever kind of people you think never got this message). The question is, does the message "repent of your sins and put faith in the Cross" not apply to you, if you can come up with a logical objection to God's fairness? Would you reject a life preserver offered to you while drowning, if another person was too far out to sea to get one? (Some people might—and Christ talked about loving father or mother or brother more than loving him).

Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right? (Genesis 18:23-25)

We've got two main questions here, first of all, "what is right" to God may not seem "what is right" to us. Even Abraham seemed a bit hesitant in his questioning. We know he surely expressed deference, but why go down the numbers so slowly? People talk about his "intercession" for Lot, but we might just as well conclude that Abraham wasn't sure what exactly was the right thing in Yahweh's eyes. (Mightn't it better for us not to assume things as well?) Secondly is the question how, exactly, does a person become righteous. That's a theme the entire Scripture tackles.

I believe that Scriptures to be inspired. That being said, I believe in rigorous textual criticism.

We can readily agree the meaning isn't always obvious, and we should study it all we can. I would add to study, our own personal spiritual efforts to hear God's voice, just as, I see Scripture teaching us to do.

[Singalphile]

So the main point of this is to avoid division, quarreling, foolish controversies, disputing, etc. We know those things are wrong. We also recognize that the Bible does say that a few things must be believed in order for a person to be called a Christian (see the previously listed verses).

Again, I for one am not interested right now in what verses you or I think are important. I'm asking for verses that explicitly declare within the text of the verse that "x" fact must be accepted as true (or at least not denied) in order for a person to be saved. So far, there aren't that many, but I feel like there must be more. I for one would like to have a complete list, so please let me/us know if run across one. It is a fixed, finite number, so it should be doable (like finding the number of verses containing the word "love").

Thanks.

[jriccitelli]

You used the words 'must be believed'. The word 'shall' would denote the mandate of 'must' believe, or at least 'must' obey. You also said 'in order for a person to be saved', but first a person needs to believe they are not saved. So the 'believing they have sinned' would be in order first.

You could just plug in the words 'You shall' and 'You shall not' into the bible search and begin there with 'what must be believed to be saved?' (or not condemned). For every time it says 'shall' the penalty for not doing so would be a sin, and thus because of sin, it is first believed, we cannot be saved. That must be believed. So we also believe that 'And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness' (Heb 9:22)

So 'without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness', so unless we believe that statement, we cannot be saved.
There are problems and there are solutions, saved being a solution. But not believing is the problem.

[jriccitelli]

Saved is not the only way to say forgive me, and saved is not the only way to say get up and walk.

Many words convey the act of salvation, and ultimately sanctification, since we are not simply saved, but brought into a new Holy creation. This could be broken down into a process or into pieces, with words to define each step, and that is possible, yet forgiveness / salvation / redemption / justification / reconciliation / sanctification / glorification / adoption / resurrected / eternal life / vocation / bearing fruit / becoming one / in Christ / etc. all melds together so as to work as one process simultaneously, which 'could' be simply labeled salvation, or being born again, or redeemed, or...

We could very easily run two threads parallel relating to ‘What must we do to be saved’:
1. What must we do?
2. What must we not do?
The second, being the longer list. Think of it like the law, there are a million ways to get thrown in jail, and yet one act will get you out, such as bail, doing your time, or a pardon. Salvation could be reduced to simply the erasing and forgiveness of the sins that condemned us, but 'scriptures idea of salvation' is not simply the forgiveness of sins (as in release from jail). God forgives (saves) us for the purpose of raising us from the dead - unto New life (and really, the purpose God gives, is for His Names sake: Psalm 23:3, 25:11, 31;3, 79:9, 143:11, Jer 14:7, 21, Ezek 20:14, 22, etc).

I am not necessarily in the once saved always saved camp (at least not from mans perspective), I believe we are sealed with the Spirit of God, yet we are also warned to ‘continue’ to believe, hold on to the ‘faith’ that saves us, and don’t turn back to unbelief. So then these verses and warning would also be related to what we may be looking for in verses relating to what must be believed to be saved.

"In Your lovingkindness You have led the people whom You have redeemed; In Your strength You have guided them to Your holy habitation” (Exodus 15:13)
“When the LORD sent you from Kadesh-barnea, saying, ‘Go up and possess the land which I have given you,’ then you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God; you neither believed Him nor listened to His voice. 24 “You have been rebellious against the LORD from the day I knew you… "I prayed to the LORD and said, 'O Lord GOD, do not destroy Your people, even Your inheritance, whom You have redeemed through Your greatness, whom You have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 27 'Remember Your servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; do not look at the stubbornness of this people or at their wickedness or their sin' (Duet 9)
Redeemed, sure, but they were not yet in the promised land, nor would they get there of their own strength, nor would they get there because they were more righteous than the people God was destroying from the land before them.

The loss of salvation, and the means of gaining salvation, begins in Genesis and winds its way all the way through to the last book, on every page. Salvation, what it is, and why we need it, could be put it into a few sentences, but to understand what these few verses mean and their definition comes from throughout the whole word, and all of it working together, so we should be able to grasp what is the breadth and length and height and depth of salvation:
‘In order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith’ (Gal 3:13)
‘So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God’ (Eph 3:18)
Receiving 'the promise of the Spirit, Christ dwelling in us, and filled up to all the fullness of God' also would be congruent with salvation.
'He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard' (Colossians 1:22-23)

Amen (Just plug 'continue in faith' into your computer bible search, I was surprised by all the verse references, and I felt a bit of alarm and fear also)

[Jepne]

I wish there was a 'like' button. Great discussion going on here.

When I first met the Lord, this was it for me:

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

All I knew for days was that Jesus was raised from the dead and that he lived in me.

Then, Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, ....that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

That's the whole point. Jesus came for us, to dwell in us by His spirit so we can be transformed into his likeness and do works that exceed his!

Joh 14:12 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

****************
Jesus told the Jews: John 5:38 and you do not have his [active, living] word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
.... 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

So it is possible to have correct doctrines and exegesis and miss the whole thing.

[Paidion]

I wish there was a 'like' button.

Jepne, I've noticed that several others have expressed that sentiment. Here is the "like" button that I use. If you want to use it, right click on the image and choose "copy image location."

[crgfstr1]

I agree it is a great discussion and many have posted wonderful points. I don't think though we are to focus too much on this and rather our relationship with and pleasing God. It feels like wanting to know if a D- is acceptable rather than being a A+ student. I hope we are all striving for the A+ but this comes to our minds when we feel we are failing. I know this concept has come up in several of Steve's tapes but I don't think he used the analogy I did. Maybe someone is listening to one now that can point us to a good one.

The more we learn the more we see our failings. I think this is to remind us to be humble and draw near to God for guidance.

It isn't a test though it is a relationship.

I have peace in the fact that whether or not I am saved, justice and mercy will be done because God is a loving and just God. Every knee will bow in acknowledgement that God is a righteous King.

[TheEditor]

Hi Crg,

I agree and think that's a great analogy. In trying to sift through all of this, our goal should be trying to be that good student; even if we fail the theology exam, at least we gave it our best shot. Fortunately, I don't think we are graded on this stuff. I believe God does wink a little at our ignorance. After all, Rachel thought mandrakes could make her preganant, and Jehu cleared out some of the high places, though Jehu seemed a little confused on calf-worship. I trust God will take many things into account. Jesus had all theological knowledge, but took the Pharisees to task not on their bogus theology, but their mistreatment of their Jewish brothers and self-righteousness.

Regards, Brenden.