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Proper grammar

Re: Proper grammar

Postby dwight92070 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:15 pm

Come on, get off the merry-gp-round. It's my turn. :) :lol:

I checked out your link. First of all, the word "transitive" is never used, which is odd. But they do give the definition WITH an object, which does suggest it is transitive. The word "intransitive" is used. However, looking over the whole definition of "stumbled", and specifically the 6 sentences showing examples of correct contemporary usage, not one of them is transitive. They are all intransitive.

Now why do you think they would not include even one example of "stumbled" used transitively? Could it be because that is not part of correct contemporary usage? Just because they list a definition for transitive usage, that does not mean that that it is currently the correct way to use it. Granted, they should have said that, but they didn't. Instead they gave no examples of "stumbled" used transitively. You gave several examples, all of which, IMO, are incorrect grammar in today's English.
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby dwight92070 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:38 pm

Candlepower:

One final question: The examples you gave of using "stumbled" in the transitive sense - is that the way you normally talk? Or do you normally use "stumbled" the way I do and the way Charles Harrington Elster says is the proper way to use it today, i.e. in the intransitive sense?

Dwight
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby Cheryl » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:08 am

Dwight, A teacher friend shared this post today on Facebook, "My life is a constant struggle between wanting to correct grammar and wanting to have friends." As a reformed grammar corrector, I enjoyed a good giggle from that post.

Keeping this within your stated intent of being on a lighter note, I must admit I am intrigued by this sentence from your OP of August 31: "Here's a couple of questions for you."

Is "Here's" (singular) correct or should it be, "Here're a couple of questions?" (Plural)
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby dwight92070 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:11 am

Cheryl wrote:Dwight, A teacher friend shared this post today on Facebook, "My life is a constant struggle between wanting to correct grammar and wanting to have friends." As a reformed grammar corrector, I enjoyed a good giggle from that post.

Keeping this within your stated intent of being on a lighter note, I must admit I am intrigued by this sentence from your OP of August 31: "Here's a couple of questions for you."

Is "Here's" (singular) correct or should it be, "Here're a couple of questions?" (Plural)


Dwight: You might be right on that. I will look into it. My first thought is that I was referring to only one (singular) couple. If I wanted to refer to more than one couple, then I would say: "Here are several couples of questions ..." Regarding your first comment, God knows I do not wish to lose friends over such a matter. On the other hand, we of all people should be able to take correction(s), even in grammar, without feeling offended or hurt. If we can't handle admonishment in grammar, how will ever be able to handle it in weightier matters in the Scripture?
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby dwight92070 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 am

The words "stumble", "stumbles", "stumbled", and "stumbling" are used a total of 99 times in the Bible. Not one of those is used in the transitive form. Surely, if the intransitive form is a correct alternative, the writers would have put that in there several times.
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby Paidion » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:48 am

The Merriam-Webster dictionary gives both the intransitive and transitive meanings of the word:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stumble
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby dwight92070 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:57 pm

Paidion wrote:The Merriam-Webster dictionary gives both the intransitive and transitive meanings of the word:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stumble


Dwight: You are correct and I acknowledged that in an earlier post referring to dictionary.com. But once again, notice the examples of "stumbled" used in sentences in your Merriam-Webster.com reference:

Examples of stumble in a Sentence
I stumbled on the uneven pavement.
The horse stumbled and almost fell.
He stumbled drunkenly across the room.
He stumbled over to the table.
I heard him stumble over the unfamiliar words.
She stumbled through an apology.
The economy has stumbled in recent months.


Learner's definition of STUMBLE
[no object]
1
: to hit your foot on something when you are walking or running so that you fall or almost fall : trip
I stumbled on the uneven pavement.
The horse stumbled and almost fell.
2
always followed by an adverb or preposition : to walk in an awkward way
He stumbled drunkenly across the room.
He stumbled over to the table.
She usually stumbles out of bed [=gets out of bed] around 7:00 am.
3
a : to speak or act in an awkward way
I heard him stumble over the unfamiliar words.
She stumbled through an apology.
b : to begin to have problems after a time of success
The economy has stumbled in recent months.
4
always followed by an adverb or preposition : to find or learn about something unexpectedly
I stumbled across/on/upon [=found] this book by chance.
He stumbled onto [=found out] the truth.
We stumbled onto/across the ruins of an old fort.
They stumbled on/upon [=discovered] a bizarre plot.
— stumble noun, plural stumbles [count]
After a few stumbles, the economy was back on track.

If I counted correctly, there are 20 sentences and EVERY ONE is in the intransitive form. Just as the 99 times that a form of "stumble" is used in the Bible and ALL of those are in the intransitive form. If the transitive form is currently (and correctly) in use, then at least half of all the examples should be in that form. But how many times is the transitive form used? ZERO

Notice the 2nd section of sentences above labeled "Learner's definition of STUMBLE". In other words, if you wanted to teach someone who had never heard the word, the definition of STUMBLE, you could use the 4 examples that follow. Notice they DON'T EVEN MENTION the transitive use of the word. Why do you suppose that is?

Again, according to CHE (Charles Harrington Elster), who is apparently an expert on the English language, it's because the transitive form died out in the mid 1600's.
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Re: Proper grammar

Postby dwight92070 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:42 pm

By the way, CHE's source is the Oxford English Dictionary, where it says that the transitive use of "stumbled" ended in the mid 17th century.
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