True Forgiveness

[Paidion]

I can't see that Luke 16:11 has anything to do with the subject at hand. It speaks of not being faithful with money, and is connected to the preceding verse which speaks of being dishonest.

[robbyyoung]

I can't see that Luke 16:11 has anything to do with the subject at hand. It speaks of not being faithful with money, and is connected to the preceding verse which speaks of being dishonest.

Hi Paidion, now I'm surprised at you! You can't see the connection of being "trustworthy"apart from being "forgiven" in any and all matters, by observing Matt 19:9, I Cor 7:10,11 and Luke 16:11?

Yeshua said this:

If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?

You do know what "The True Riches" are, don't you? God can FORGIVE us and at the same find us untrutworthy to receive more than we have. Can you see the connection now? You are continuing to conflate forgiveness with trust inappropriately. I hope you can see this.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Hi paidion,

You wrote:

I was sure that someone would ask me this question. Paul was correct in describing the man's act as "porneia." Why do you call it "incest"? Webster defines "incest" as "sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry." The man wasn't copulating with his mother. He was copulating with his father's woman—paramour. I think you know that the Greek word "γυνη" is used to mean either "woman" or "wife." Since Paul called it "porneia," I suspect that the woman was a prostitute, and that his father was having her for a price. There is no indication that the man's father was a Christian. Paul says that it was porneia of a kind such that was not found even among the gentiles (The early Christians called non-Christians "gentiles". I'm sure the church at Corinth had many non-Jews, but they would not be considered as gentiles since they had become part of the Israel of God). Why was it worse than the usual use of prostitutes? I suspect the reason to be that it was the prostitute whom his father was using. Here is my translation of 1 Cor 5:1. I tried to be as literal as possible:

It is heard among you fornication, and such fornication which is not among the gentiles, so as to have the woman of the father.

I have been meaning to get back to you on this. It seems to me you are forcing a meaning to "his fathers woman (wife) to make it fit with your idea that porneia refers to nothing other than prostitution. As prominent as prostitution was among the gentiles at Corinth it seems odd to me that they would find it so awful for a father and son to use the same prostitute. They did, however, take great exception to a son having his father's wife (stepmother):

Barnes comments:

That this offence was regarded with abhorrence by even the pagans has been abundantly proved by quotations from classic writers. See Wetstein, Bloomfield, and Whitby. Cicero says of the offence, expressly, that "it was an incredible and unheard of crime."

And Leviticus 18:8 classifies it with some awful stuff (see 18:15; father/son goes both ways) such as bestiality, sacrificing children by fire, homosexual acts, etc., so we can see why Paul was so upset.

Why would Paul use gune, translated either "wife" or "woman" (more often the former than the latter in the New Testament) rather than the word for prostitute, porne? He certainly had porne in his vocabulary as he used it twice in Chapter 6. Once again you are at odds with all, or virtually all exegetes of the scriptures.

[Paidion]

So you agree that "pornā" means "prostitute." But you are sure that "porneia" has a broader meaning than "whoremongering" or "working as a prostitute." What is your justification for that idea? Simply that it fits "virtually all exegetes of the scriptures"? Or do you have any examples in which the word is used in another sense other than the passage from I Corinthians (if indeed that is an example)?

[Homer]

Paidion,

From "The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words", on porneia and related words: “This word group describes various extramarital sexual modes of behavior insofar as they deviate from accepted social and religious norms (e.g., homosexuality, promiscuity, pedophilia, and esp. prostitution)” (Verbrugge, 2000, p.1077). And: “Rab. Jud. (Rabbinical Judaism—KB) frowned on any kind of prostitution of extramarital sexual intercourse. Incest and all kinds of unnatural sexual intercourse were viewed as porneia (p.1078)".

In the discussion of the word’s use in the New Testament, the volume states:

P. 1079 It is not clear whether porneia in the so-called ‘exceptive clause’ (Matt 5:32; 19:9) is to be understood simply as extramarital sexual intercourse in the sense of moicheia or as including prostitution. Most interpreters tend to favor the former interpretation…. The porne word group denotes any kind of illegitimate sexual intercourse in Paul's letters...

Verbrugge's is a 1500p condensed version of the three volume TDNT. I have both but didn't look at the larger version.

[Paidion]

Thanks for sharing the results of your research, Homer. But regardless of whether the young man committed porneia and consorted with his father's prostitute, or whether in this context, the word means "mocheia" and rather he committed adultery with his father's wife—his stepmother (though in that case, I don't know why Paul wouldn't have used the word "mocheia"), the main point of this thread remains:

True forgiveness means more than either letting go of ill feelings, or not requiring the offender to make restitution, or both. Though true forgiveness includes both, it also involves a restoration of relationship with the offender, to the extent that as far as that restored relationship is concerned, it's just as if the offender had never sinned. That is the way God forgives us. He doesn't merely say, "I'm not angry at you anymore, and I won't insist on restitution (though a truly rerpentant person would WANT to make restitution). He has also restored the relationship. Otherwise, He would think like so many today think, "I have forgiven you, but don't expect me to ever relate to you in the same way again. I cannot trust you. You are likely to repeat your offence."

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

it also involves a restoration of relationship with the offender, to the extent that as far as that restored relationship is concerned, it's just as if the offender had never sinned.

And I strongly disagree for reasons previously stated.

That is the way God forgives us. He doesn't merely say, "I'm not angry at you anymore, and I won't insist on restitution (though a truly rerpentant person would WANT to make restitution). He has also restored the relationship. Otherwise, He would think like so many today think, "I have forgiven you, but don't expect me to ever relate to you in the same way again. I cannot trust you. You are likely to repeat your offence."

I left a church where I was an elder for over twenty years because of this idea of restoring a person to the same status as though he had not sinned. He is forgiven, they said. He had divorced two women while attending the church (one prior) and was married to his fourth wife. None of that matters, they insisted, he is forgiven the same as anyone else. So they "restored the relationship" as you say, and made him an elder. Think about it, this perfectly illustrates my point. You can forgive and love the person but there are consequences that never should be changed, such as with a pedophile.

If God restores the relationship, why the restriction on being an elder?

[dizerner]

I wonder too how eternal rewards or lack thereof might factor in, that some things we do have eternal consequences even if we can attain justification. I heard many people that wanted to say that all saints get exactly the same rewards in heaven, due to it being through Christ alone. However, I have a hard time harmonizing that with many Biblical passages. In other words, does forgiveness in that sense mean we are treated exactly the same by God no matter how we misappropriate his gifts? Not to say that sin will enter heaven, but perhaps some of that weeping will be things some have missed out on. I think too that, we are to forgive even when the person doesn't repent, right? In that case, the person being unrepentant, it would be foolish to act like they would not do it again. Forgiveness cannot mean we throw caution or our brains out the window.

[Paidion]

I think too that, we are to forgive even when the person doesn't repent, right?

Wrong! Forgiving an unrepentant person is impossible. True forgiveness is a response to repentance. Jesus said:

Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3)

IF HE REPENTS, forgive him. Forgiveness is conditional upon repentance. He must have a change of heart and mind concerning what he has been doing or forgiveness is impossible. Oh, you can let go of your ill feelings toward him even if he doesn't repent. You can refrain from demanding restitution even if he doesn't repent. But you cannot forgive if he doesn't repent. For forgiveness implies a restoration of relationship.

In that case, the person being unrepentant, it would be foolish to act like they would not do it again.

But that ISN"T the case, if you have truly forgiven him. If he's had a change of heart and mind, he won't DESIRE to do it again. Oh, he might slip and do it some time in the future, but will be convicted in his heart, and with practice cease from it altogether. It depends a great deal upon the nature of the offence. A repentant person will never repeat a murder or a rape or the act of child molestation. He might repeat a minor theft. But if he receives love and encouragement, he will not repeat even that.

Forgiveness cannot mean we throw caution or our brains out the window.

While holding onto your caution and brains, be careful not to throw your love out the window!

[Homer]

Paidion,

I am looking for your response to my question in my last post on this thread.