Steve and Others,
My name is Josh Hahn. I am new to the forum but have a question about when we receive the indwelling prescence of the Holy Spirit. I would especially love to hear from Steve. I have been listening to his teaching and learned a great deal. So here's my question...
In Acts 19, Paul is travelling and runs into some believers in Ephesus. He asks them "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They say no. Paul thinks "Why did they not receive this?" and so asks "Into what baptism were you immersed?" They reply "Johns." Paul then baptizes them, lays hands on them and they receive the Holy Spirit. I have had it explained to me that it is at baptism that we receive the indwelling prescence of the Holy Spirit. This passage seems to indicate it. I am personally an immersed believer and believe that I have received the Holy Spirit.
However, I have family members who have not been immersed. They are apart of other denominations that teach infant baptism, etc. My question is then are "Have these believers received the indwelling prescence of the Holy Spirit?" and if so, "How?"
My personal understanding to this point is that they have not. This is not due to things I see in these particular believers that I know but based upon this passage.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Your brother in Him,
Josh
Indwelling Prescence of the Holy Spirit
Indwelling Prescence of the Holy Spirit
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Him,
Josh
Josh
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Josh, My understanding is that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the point we believe in our heart. Paul said that "no man can say Jesus is the Lord without the Holy Spirit" so it seems that there may be an intellectual belief from the head but to move it into the heart we need the Holy Spirit. Steve7150
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi Josh.
I thought others would have answered this before, so I didn't say anything when I first saw this. But I'd like to suggest a useful way of telling whether a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not. It's not 100% accurate but it's pretty close.
My suggestion is to look at their fruits (Gal. 5:19-23, etc.). Do they believe in Jesus only intellectually, or does it have a real impact on how they live and on how they relate to others?
Baptism by immersion is an important symbol, but even so it's only a symbol. The thief on the cross didn't have the opportunity to be baptized, did he? And yet Jesus promised that he would be in paradise (Luke 23:42-43).
What baptism is supposed to signify, as far as what actually happens to a person when they are baptized, is a casting off of the old nature and a renewal of the pure love within them that they had as a child (Mat. 18:1-3, 19:13-14; Eph. 5:1-2). Over time, that pure love diminishes within a person as bad parenting, circumstances, and their own negative emotional baggage all steal it from them. But the Holy Spirit of love (2 Tim. 1:7) symbolically turns back the clock, giving them a new birth and a new, conscious opportunity to choose good instead of evil.
Anyway, the reason why I said that examining a person's fruits isn't a 100% certain way to tell whether they're indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not is because people can "quench the Spirit" of love within them (1 Thess. 5:19). They can do that in one specific instance, or chronically. If they chronically choose to quench the Spirit, they risk losing it altogether as King Saul did (1 Sam. 16:14) after disobeying God in order to please the people on several different occasions. But God's whole plan and purpose with humanity doesn't involve forcing them to do His will, but motivating them through the Spirit of love (Zech. 4:6). So, God desires to have mercy even on the most hardened people in the world (including those who've already been baptized and who've already received the Holy Spirit!) in the hopes that their hearts will soften and that they will allow the Holy Spirit to work within them.
As far as your family goes, since they don't believe in adult baptism by immersion, they won't necessarily grasp this symbol's full significance. The best thing you can do, rather than trying to convince them of their erroneous doctrine, is to show them by example what baptism is supposed to mean. And if they already know, then so much the better. The doctrinal stuff, God can always sort out when they see Him in person.
Hope that helps.
Damon
I thought others would have answered this before, so I didn't say anything when I first saw this. But I'd like to suggest a useful way of telling whether a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not. It's not 100% accurate but it's pretty close.
My suggestion is to look at their fruits (Gal. 5:19-23, etc.). Do they believe in Jesus only intellectually, or does it have a real impact on how they live and on how they relate to others?
Baptism by immersion is an important symbol, but even so it's only a symbol. The thief on the cross didn't have the opportunity to be baptized, did he? And yet Jesus promised that he would be in paradise (Luke 23:42-43).
What baptism is supposed to signify, as far as what actually happens to a person when they are baptized, is a casting off of the old nature and a renewal of the pure love within them that they had as a child (Mat. 18:1-3, 19:13-14; Eph. 5:1-2). Over time, that pure love diminishes within a person as bad parenting, circumstances, and their own negative emotional baggage all steal it from them. But the Holy Spirit of love (2 Tim. 1:7) symbolically turns back the clock, giving them a new birth and a new, conscious opportunity to choose good instead of evil.
Anyway, the reason why I said that examining a person's fruits isn't a 100% certain way to tell whether they're indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not is because people can "quench the Spirit" of love within them (1 Thess. 5:19). They can do that in one specific instance, or chronically. If they chronically choose to quench the Spirit, they risk losing it altogether as King Saul did (1 Sam. 16:14) after disobeying God in order to please the people on several different occasions. But God's whole plan and purpose with humanity doesn't involve forcing them to do His will, but motivating them through the Spirit of love (Zech. 4:6). So, God desires to have mercy even on the most hardened people in the world (including those who've already been baptized and who've already received the Holy Spirit!) in the hopes that their hearts will soften and that they will allow the Holy Spirit to work within them.
As far as your family goes, since they don't believe in adult baptism by immersion, they won't necessarily grasp this symbol's full significance. The best thing you can do, rather than trying to convince them of their erroneous doctrine, is to show them by example what baptism is supposed to mean. And if they already know, then so much the better. The doctrinal stuff, God can always sort out when they see Him in person.
Hope that helps.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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