Beholding the glory of the Lord?

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Beholding the glory of the Lord?

Post by jaydam » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:55 am

Thanks for keeping the ball rolling. :)

I haven't forgotten about your points. I am working through them.

Question:

If you believe the "we all" who have had their faces unveiled are all believers, not just Jews, then where do you see that Paul believes Gentiles also deal with a veil?

The only place I see Paul uses such an idea of people who are veiled would be in the preceding verses which seem to clearly indicate Jews are the ones dealing with veils.

Does that make sense? The idea of veils seems to be in the preceding verses a uniquely Jewish problem of living in denial or resistance since the days of Moses, so why would it suddenly be Jews and Gentiles being unveiled in v18?

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Beholding the glory of the Lord?

Post by steve » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:26 am

Hi Jay,

The Jews are spiritually blind to the truth of Christ—and so are pagan Gentiles (Eph.4:17-19) and backsliders (2 Peter 1:9). I don't think Paul is trying to say that only Jewish people are blind in this way. However, he is using the imagery of Moses' veil as an analogy of their blindness. To say, "The Jews are blinded" (or "their mind is veiled") is not saying something applicable only to Jews. However, the story of Moses' veiling the glory shining on his face provides a great parallel to that spiritual blindness when talking about the Jews.

You and I both believe that the words, "but we all..." introduce a contrast. We also agree that, in the section before the "but," Paul has clearly spoken of the unbelieving Jews. Who, then, are the "we all" following the "but"? You suggest that it is Paul and Timothy, and I would suggest that your view would also allow that he means all believing Jews, as contrasted with the unbelieving Jews of the previous context. I can see such a possibility, but I would be more inclined to say that "we all" refers to all Christians (contrasted from unbelieving Jews, particularly, in this context, but also with unbelievers of every race).

A Jew's blindness is likened to a veil which is removed when one turns to Christ. But this needn't be an idea restricted to Jews. It just happens to be the group under consideration in the passage—and is especially apt, since it was the ancestors of the Jews whose eyes were prevented from seeing behind Moses' veil, in the illustration.

Yet, I do not think it to be like Paul to distinguish between believing Jews and believing Gentiles, in a phrase like "we all." You mentioned that pas can be translated to mean "each." Zodhiates says that this is the case when used with a singular subject, or with a plural subject that has an article. When the subject is plural, without an article, he says, it should be translated collectively: "all." This is how we find it in 2 Corinthians 3:18. This is, no doubt, the reason why, in searching ten of the most literal English translations, I have been unable to find one that does not translate the phrase as "we all" or "all of us."

I believe that Paul's flow of thought from the earlier discussion is something like this:

Though the Jews typically view Gentiles as stupid and morally blind, they themselves actually suffer from the same handicap. In spite of the glorious revelation given to them through Moses, they have settled for the lesser when the more glorious has come. Thus, it is not we, but they, whose minds are blinded or "veiled"—a condition that will not change for them (or for anyone else) until they turn to the Lord.

We, Christians, by contrast, do not have such a veil between us and God, and can behold His glory (however hazily, at this present time) in the face of Christ
(cf., the awkward phrase, 6 verses later, that says we have been given "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ"—4:6).

As Moses' face was transformed by the radiance of the inferior revelation, so also we are transformed by the greater revelation—only, in our case, it is not a fading transformation (as with Moses), but the ever-growing radiance of gradual transformation into the image of Christ—a work accomplished by the Spirit of God in us.

The reference to the "mirror" is not particularly favorable to your case, since Paul has used the same idea (namely, that our present view of Christ is not as clear and direct as it will someday be) in his previous letter to the same audience (1 Cor.13:12). There, the reference made no allusion to the Torah as a mirror. Also, James' use of the mirror metaphor (1:23) did not apply to the Mosaic Torah, specifically, but to the word of God spoken to Christians, in general, and specifically Christ's "perfect law of liberty" (v.25) or "the royal law," which James identifies as "love your neighbor as yourself" (2:8). [I will allow that James' readers, being Jewish Christians, may have encountered this "word of God", primarily, in the form of apostolic expositions on the Torah, but this, most likely, would not be the case with the Corinthians].

The contrasts between Moses and Paul (as a Christiian, not merely as a preacher) would be as follows:

1) Moses' delivered God's earlier covenant on stone tablets; the New is engraved in the hearts of his hearers (vv.3, 7);
2) Moses' ministry had a certain glory, but also condemnation and death; the New is more glorious, with no downside (vv.7-10)
3) The glory of Moses' ministry was a temporary, fading thing; the glory of the New does not diminish, but increases (vv.11-11, 13);
4) Moses was reluctant to allow his fading glory to be seen; Christians are bold to put the glory of their message on display (vv.12, 18).
5) Those who reject the New cannot even properly perceive the older message of Moses (vv.14-16; cf. John 5:39-47).

I believe that your explanation of 2 Corinthians 3:18 is sensible, but I think mine more naturally conforms to Paul's general thought and word usage.

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Beholding the glory of the Lord?

Post by jaydam » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:54 pm

I've been going through your points Steve, and I cannot refute your position entirely.

I believe an argument over the "we all" cannot solve the issue as I think it can be strongly argued to either be all the Jews who had their veils removed from v16 or it can be all believers. Immediate context would make me think, disregarding other difficulties, that it is referring to all the unveiled Jews (I do not see as I initially did that it would be understood as just Paul and Timothy). Greater context of Pauline lit does make it odd that Paul would reference Jewish believers apart of Gentile.

The greatest tell in my opinion, and the top issue which I cannot be rectified to my view, is the ongoing transformation "into the same image" as one goes "from glory to glory." - since I view a switch of covenants by a Jew would be immediate and singular in nature.

Thus, you are right that this cannot be a switch of covenants, and it can only be the continual progression of the believer into greater glory contrasted with the fading glory of the past.

Therefore, this "we" must be special beyond the other we's which I believe Paul uses to identify himself and Timothy, and this would perhaps explain why he adds the Greek "pas" to the we. To ensure his audience knows at this point he is including them all in this use of the word we.

And Dizerner can rest easy in his belief again. ;)

Thank you for your extended posts Steve that laid out so much information. I enjoyed seeing how far my position could go, and yet it ultimately fails. I must admit I have not researched many commentaries on the matter, and my view simply came from my own reading. But apparently you have run into others who believe the same thing.

Anyway, as always, I'm happy to shift as needed based upon proofs.

Returning to my original question as to if the unveiled faces of the "we all" are the mirror or are looking in the mirror, I found the NET translation interesting:
3:18 And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
It seems the only translation that blatantly makes the unveiled faces the mirror.

Post Reply

Return to “Miscellaneous”