Psalm 15:4 " ... In whose eyes a reprobate is despised ... " There are many verses like this. Another one is Psalm 139:21 "Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost hatred; they have become my enemies."
Jesus said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you ..."
Didn't David have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus had and that we have? How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction?
Dwight
How should the righteous view evil men?
-
dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
One possible reconciliation is that the Psalms are prayers, and not doctrinal. And he did not have the same Holy Spirit as Jesus.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
JeffreyLong.net
Jesusna.me
@30thirteen
JeffreyLong.net
Jesusna.me
@30thirteen
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
The psalms are musical poems and do not prescribe doctrine. They contain a wide range of thought, including angry prayers, requests, observations, thankfulness and sometimes prophecy. I think that we, as followers of Christ, should only pay attention to the summary statements found in the NT (like Matthew 22:37-40 & Galations 5:14), otherwise we can get into serious error when reading the OT.
-
dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
Morbo,
I am stunned. Is there more than one Holy Spirit? Please explain how the Holy Spirit that David had was different than the Holy Spirit that Jesus had, other than the fact that the Spirit was given to Jesus "without measure".
This thought crossed my mind just this morning, so that Jaydam and Morbo will know that I did not bait anyone. But see what you think. David was anointed as king of Israel at a very young age, even before he killed Goliath. In 1 Samuel 16:13 we read: "Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward." The Lord had David anointed as a king and a ruler. What is one of the main functions of rulers? Paul tells us in Romans 13:4 that a ruler is a "minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." and to praise those who do good (verse 3). So even thought David had not ascended to the throne yet, he still had the anointing and calling of God on him and the "spirit" or attitude of a ruler. Proverbs 20:26 says "A wise king winnows the wicked, and drives the threshing wheel over them." Rulers are ministers of God to administer justice. So when David says that he hates those who hate God, isn't he actually saying that he wants justice to be done, both for the wicked and for the righteous? Isn't is the spirit and anointing of a king in him that is crying out for justice?
If this is true, then we, once again, see a differentiation between how we are to behave toward our enemies vs. how a government or king is called to behave toward the enemies of society.
As far as Psalms not being meant to be used for doctrine, I think that is a great mistake, Morbo and Jason. Jesus used it doctrinally in Matthew 21:42-46, quoting Psalm 110. Peter used it doctrinally, quoting the same Psalm in Acts 2:34-35. Paul used it doctrinally in Romans 3:10-18 and many other places. Peter, once again used it doctrinally quoting Psalm 118:22 in 1 Peter 2:7. In fact, it is my understanding that the Psalms are quoted more often in the New Testament than any other book and I would be surprised if 100% of those quotes are not doctrinal.
Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching (which includes doctrine), for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." If you are not using the Psalms, as well as all other scripture, to grasp and understand Biblical doctrine, then it appears to me that you are greatly in error.
Dwight
I am stunned. Is there more than one Holy Spirit? Please explain how the Holy Spirit that David had was different than the Holy Spirit that Jesus had, other than the fact that the Spirit was given to Jesus "without measure".
This thought crossed my mind just this morning, so that Jaydam and Morbo will know that I did not bait anyone. But see what you think. David was anointed as king of Israel at a very young age, even before he killed Goliath. In 1 Samuel 16:13 we read: "Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward." The Lord had David anointed as a king and a ruler. What is one of the main functions of rulers? Paul tells us in Romans 13:4 that a ruler is a "minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." and to praise those who do good (verse 3). So even thought David had not ascended to the throne yet, he still had the anointing and calling of God on him and the "spirit" or attitude of a ruler. Proverbs 20:26 says "A wise king winnows the wicked, and drives the threshing wheel over them." Rulers are ministers of God to administer justice. So when David says that he hates those who hate God, isn't he actually saying that he wants justice to be done, both for the wicked and for the righteous? Isn't is the spirit and anointing of a king in him that is crying out for justice?
If this is true, then we, once again, see a differentiation between how we are to behave toward our enemies vs. how a government or king is called to behave toward the enemies of society.
As far as Psalms not being meant to be used for doctrine, I think that is a great mistake, Morbo and Jason. Jesus used it doctrinally in Matthew 21:42-46, quoting Psalm 110. Peter used it doctrinally, quoting the same Psalm in Acts 2:34-35. Paul used it doctrinally in Romans 3:10-18 and many other places. Peter, once again used it doctrinally quoting Psalm 118:22 in 1 Peter 2:7. In fact, it is my understanding that the Psalms are quoted more often in the New Testament than any other book and I would be surprised if 100% of those quotes are not doctrinal.
Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching (which includes doctrine), for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." If you are not using the Psalms, as well as all other scripture, to grasp and understand Biblical doctrine, then it appears to me that you are greatly in error.
Dwight
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
Didn't David have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus had and that we have? How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction?
Before Pentecost the Holy Spirit only anointed people for a specific job but didn't indwell them. Also David was part of the Old Covenant so these "love your enemy" commands or principals were not present yet.
Before Pentecost the Holy Spirit only anointed people for a specific job but didn't indwell them. Also David was part of the Old Covenant so these "love your enemy" commands or principals were not present yet.
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
Dwight wrote:
1 Samuel 10:6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6. Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man.
So from which scripture(s) can it be shown that Saul was given the Spirit in a way or measure inferior to that which Christians receive?
The Psalmist hates them and considers them to be his enemies. That does not mean he can not love (agape) his enemies as Jesus commanded. Love can be an exercise of the will in extending benevolence to a person you have no positive emotional feelings toward.Psalm 15:4 " ... In whose eyes a reprobate is despised ... " There are many verses like this. Another one is Psalm 139:21 "Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost hatred; they have become my enemies."
Jesus said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you ..."
Consider the following:Didn't David have the same Holy Spirit that Jesus had and that we have? How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction?
1 Samuel 10:6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6. Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man.
So from which scripture(s) can it be shown that Saul was given the Spirit in a way or measure inferior to that which Christians receive?
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
dwight92070,
Forgive me, but it seems like you are trying to justify hating your enemies. Is that not the case?
Forgive me, but it seems like you are trying to justify hating your enemies. Is that not the case?
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
Dwight, can't use see that Morbo was using a manner of speaking? He wasn't suggesting that David had one Holy Spirit, and Jesus another. It seems to me that Morbo was saying that David (at least sometimes) didn't act by the Holy Spirit as Jesus always did.Morbo,
I am stunned. Is there more than one Holy Spirit? Please explain how the Holy Spirit that David had was different than the Holy Spirit that Jesus had...
So in the case in question, David was not acting from the same Holy Spirit as was Jesus. Rather, he was acting from a spirit of hate.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
Correct. And I was also saying what steve7150 said:Paidion wrote:Dwight, can't use see that Morbo was using a manner of speaking? He wasn't suggesting that David had one Holy Spirit, and Jesus another. It seems to me that Morbo was saying that David (at least sometimes) didn't act by the Holy Spirit as Jesus always did.Morbo,
I am stunned. Is there more than one Holy Spirit? Please explain how the Holy Spirit that David had was different than the Holy Spirit that Jesus had...
So in the case in question, David was not acting from the same Holy Spirit as was Jesus. Rather, he was acting from a spirit of hate.
Before Pentecost the Holy Spirit only anointed people for a specific job but didn't indwell them. Also David was part of the Old Covenant so these "love your enemy" commands or principals were not present yet.
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
JeffreyLong.net
Jesusna.me
@30thirteen
JeffreyLong.net
Jesusna.me
@30thirteen
-
dwight92070
- Posts: 1550
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am
Re: How should the righteous view evil men?
Jason,
No, I am not trying to justify hating my enemies. I know Jesus told us to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, and pray for them. But I do not believe that means if a burglar breaks into your house and rapes your wife, that you tell him, "Here's my daughter, you can rape her too." I don't believe the New Testament forbids self defense anywhere. If fact, Jesus assumes that you will defend yourself from violence, rape, burglary, and death. Luke 12:39 Jesus said, "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into." Jesus expects us to protect our family, our home, our possessions, and yes, even our own life, if possible, even it means killing an intruder.
We can love our enemies by being kind to them, praying for them, telling them about God and Jesus. If they persecute us with verbal insults, we can tolerate that and pray for them. But nowhere does the Bible or Jesus say that we are to allow them to physically attack us or our family. When Jesus says that if they slap you on one cheek, turn the other cheek, and do not retaliate. I think He is referring to an insult here more than a physical slap, but even if He is talking about a physical slap, we could even tolerate that. But once he punches you in the face or grabs your wife or kids, now we must respond and stop the wicked person, even if it may involve killing him. You can call that hatred or whatever you like, I don't think Jesus or the Bible forbids it.
King David called down curses or prayed for God to punish his enemies in several of the Psalms: Psalm 7, 35, 55, 58, 59, 69, 79, 109, 137, and 139 and yet he had the Holy Spirit, as I stated in a previous post. Do you think he was acting in the flesh and sinning in every one of those cases? I don't believe he was. 1 Kings 15:5 says: " ... because David did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite."
So tell me, Jason, how do you reconcile David's apparent hateful words towards his enemies with Jesus' command to love your enemies, since they both had the Holy Spirit? I already presented my theory in my last post. How do you do it?
Dwight
No, I am not trying to justify hating my enemies. I know Jesus told us to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, and pray for them. But I do not believe that means if a burglar breaks into your house and rapes your wife, that you tell him, "Here's my daughter, you can rape her too." I don't believe the New Testament forbids self defense anywhere. If fact, Jesus assumes that you will defend yourself from violence, rape, burglary, and death. Luke 12:39 Jesus said, "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into." Jesus expects us to protect our family, our home, our possessions, and yes, even our own life, if possible, even it means killing an intruder.
We can love our enemies by being kind to them, praying for them, telling them about God and Jesus. If they persecute us with verbal insults, we can tolerate that and pray for them. But nowhere does the Bible or Jesus say that we are to allow them to physically attack us or our family. When Jesus says that if they slap you on one cheek, turn the other cheek, and do not retaliate. I think He is referring to an insult here more than a physical slap, but even if He is talking about a physical slap, we could even tolerate that. But once he punches you in the face or grabs your wife or kids, now we must respond and stop the wicked person, even if it may involve killing him. You can call that hatred or whatever you like, I don't think Jesus or the Bible forbids it.
King David called down curses or prayed for God to punish his enemies in several of the Psalms: Psalm 7, 35, 55, 58, 59, 69, 79, 109, 137, and 139 and yet he had the Holy Spirit, as I stated in a previous post. Do you think he was acting in the flesh and sinning in every one of those cases? I don't believe he was. 1 Kings 15:5 says: " ... because David did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite."
So tell me, Jason, how do you reconcile David's apparent hateful words towards his enemies with Jesus' command to love your enemies, since they both had the Holy Spirit? I already presented my theory in my last post. How do you do it?
Dwight