So When Are We Saved?

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Homer
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So When Are We Saved?

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:22 am

I have been pondering something I read recently (can't recall where) that being saved is generally or always described in the scriptures as future. We commonly hear someone "got saved", meaning now. A quick look at a couple scriptures, Jesus and Paul, appear to speak of being saved as a future event:

Mark 16:16 (NASB)

16. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (Grk. future passive); but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned (Grk. future passive).

Acts 16:30-31 Bible (NASB)

30. and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved (Grk. aorist)?”
31. They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Grk. future passive), you and your household.”


What do you think?

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steve
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by steve » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:16 am

I think there are verses that state your point more clearly than do the two verses you cited. Those verses do not say that those who believe, as the result of future preaching, will be saved in a point of even more distant future. It is talking about future preaching and belief. Therefore, even if the salvation is understood to be immediate upon the moment of belief, we would expect the reference to salvation to be as much a matter of the future (from the speaker's perspective) as will be the believing.

However, there are verses (like 1 Peter 1:5 and Romans 5:10) that speak unambiguously of present believers anticipating a future salvation.

I see salvation as consisting of:

1) justification, which occurs at conversion,

2) liberation and transformation (which is often popularly called "sanctification") occurring day-by-day in the course of this life, and

3) glorification (which occurs at the future resurrection).

When the Bible says that we "have been saved" (e.g., Eph.2:8), it refers to the first of these concepts.
When it speaks of presently being saved (e.g., 1 Cor.1:18), I think it has the second idea in view.
Scriptures that refer to salvation "ready to be revealed in the last time", are a reference to future glorification.

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Paidion
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:26 pm

I see salvation as basically a process. We are presently in the process of being saved from sin. In the verse Steve quoted (I Cor 1:18) the verb is a present passive participle. Other verses with this participle form (continuous) is found in Luke 13:23, Acts 2:47, and 2 Cor 2:15. The only NT book in which the perfect tense is used in connection with salvation (indicating a completed action) is Ephesians (e.g. "By grace you have been saved"). For that reason one of my Greek teachers, an Anglican priest who taught Greek at St. John's college (University of Manitoba), believed that Paul was not the author of Ephesians.

As I see it, we enter the door of salvation when we submit to Christ as Lord of our lives. Then we spend our lifetimes being saved from sin. And we can be assured that "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ."(Phillipians 1:6). So the process wont be completed until the day of Christ. Only then can we truly say that we have been saved.

You might be interested in viewing this short (10 minute) video in which the Most Reverend Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia (Orthodox) tells of his experience in being asked the question, "Are you saved?" After explaining to his audience what is meant by salvation, he related to them the answer he gave to the one who asked him the question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by Homer » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:33 pm

Hi Paidion,

I enjoyed listening to the short talk by Metropolitan Kallistos and I can't say I disagreed with anything he said, particularly his statement that "I am being saved" and the need for continual repentance, as we "all stumble in many ways. Where you say we are being saved from our sins, a lifelong process, I might emphasize ongoing faithfulness (faithful 'till death).

Have you (or Steve) ever thought about the implications in this for the idea of "eternal security"? Seems to me that if being saved is a lifelong process until death, or the Lord's return, the eternal security is meaningless as long as we possess free will.

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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by Singalphile » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:05 pm

In those relatively few verses that speak of those (of us) being saved, couldn't that just refer to the ongoing salvation of additional people (i.e., new Christians) rather than the ongoing salvation of people who are already Christians? People are being saved all the time, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I am being saved all the time. Not that I have any problem with that. If you want to say that I was "saved" (as opposed to the word "sanctified") a bit yesterday and I'll be "saved" a little more tomorrow, and so on, that's fine with me.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:26 pm

Seems to me that if being saved is a lifelong process until death, or the Lord's return, the eternal security is meaningless as long as we possess free will.
I would say that this would not imply that ETERNAL security is meaningless.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

But I would say that it is inconsistent with UNCONDITIONAL security or the Calvinist view that once you are "saved" it is impossible to be lost (which I myself held in my late teens and early twenties).
Paidion

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Seeker
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by Seeker » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:18 pm

steve wrote:I think there are verses that state your point more clearly than do the two verses you cited. Those verses do not say that those who believe, as the result of future preaching, will be saved in a point of even more distant future. It is talking about future preaching and belief. Therefore, even if the salvation is understood to be immediate upon the moment of belief, we would expect the reference to salvation to be as much a matter of the future (from the speaker's perspective) as will be the believing.

However, there are verses (like 1 Peter 1:5 and Romans 5:10) that speak unambiguously of present believers anticipating a future salvation.

I see salvation as consisting of:

1) justification, which occurs at conversion,

2) liberation and transformation (which is often popularly called "sanctification") occurring day-by-day in the course of this life, and

3) glorification (which occurs at the future resurrection).

When the Bible says that we "have been saved" (e.g., Eph.2:8), it refers to the first of these concepts.
When it speaks of presently being saved (e.g., 1 Cor.1:18), I think it has the second idea in view.
Scriptures that refer to salvation "ready to be revealed in the last time", are a reference to future glorification.
In light of the idea that we can lose our salvation (I agree that we can lose it), what I find hard to wrap my head around is the following scenario.

It is very possible to obtain #1 (justification) and #2 (liberation and transformation) and yet never obtain #3 (future resurrection) due to being "broken off" (Rom. 11:17) at some point before physical death.
If one dies having experienced #1 and #2, but not #3, wouldn't we then have to say that the person did not, in the end, benefit from salvation? Obviously this all assumes, as the vast majority of us do, that there is no salvation opportunity after death.

So then, the term salvation (as we apply it) is an incredibly broad term, to the point that only its context can determine its meaning. It would seem to me that Christians would avoid a lot of confusion by, in most cases, replacing the term "salvation" with a much more specific term such as those Steve laid out above.

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steve
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by steve » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:18 am

If one dies having experienced #1 and #2, but not #3, wouldn't we then have to say that the person did not, in the end, benefit from salvation?
Well, he benefits from #1 and #2, but does not benefit from #3.

The benefit of living a life forgiven and victorious over self-destructive and relationship-destroying habits is incalculable. There is "great reward" (Ps.19:11) in keeping the commandments of God.

However, the "eternal" reward will not be enjoyed unless one also experiences #3.

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Homer
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Re: So When Are We Saved?

Post by Homer » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:22 am

Seeker wrote:
So then, the term salvation (as we apply it) is an incredibly broad term, to the point that only its context can determine its meaning. It would seem to me that Christians would avoid a lot of confusion by, in most cases, replacing the term "salvation" with a much more specific term such as those Steve laid out above.
We do apply it in a broad sense. The words sozo (saved) and soteria (salvation) primarily refer to deliverance from danger, keep from harm, rescue, preserve, keep, etc.

It seems to me we can say we are saved now because we are rescued from a state of condemnation:

Luke 19:9-10 (NASB)

9. And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. 10. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

John 3:18 (NASB)

18. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We are delivered from a life of sin, a process, but we are also saved prospectively from God's wrath, and will be finally saved at judgement if we have been "faithful until death".

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