What if we all were in the same church?

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dwight92070
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What if we all were in the same church?

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:26 pm

Imagine if all of us who post here were in the same church? I know, we really are, in the sense that we are all in the body of Christ. But I mean what if we all were part of the same local body of believers? I mean, it's difficult to find 2 people here that agree on much of anything, so could we even fellowship together? Maybe we could if we just didn't mention religion or politics. Wow, that sounds familiar. Those are the subjects we are told to avoid while at work.

Last Christmas, my wife and I were invited to a party given by a teacher from the Christian school where my wife teaches. Well, this teacher had her whole family over, several of whom were not believers. In my conversation with some of them, I happened to mention my belief that God is in charge of the world (Not the Bilderberger's or the Rockefeller's). You would have thought that I started a fire or something. My wife told me later that the host's sister came running into the kitchen, excitedly saying, "Stop them, they're talking about religion."

Thank God our freedom of speech really comes from God, not just our country.

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jeremiah
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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by jeremiah » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:37 pm

I'm sure we'd manage very well. My family and I spent an evening with Jarrod, Darin and family, Steve and his wife, and others a few years ago. It was a lovely time, one I wouldn't think twice to do again.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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dwight92070
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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:30 am

Is this the kinds of disagreements that makes denominations? Let's see, we could have the First Church of Trump Supporters, the First Church of Hillary Supporters, and the First Church of Trump Haters.

Wait, the last 2 are the same church! Huh!

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morbo3000
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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by morbo3000 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:20 am

There are different causes for the formation of denominations. While we think it's doctrinal differences, I think it is often more about renewal movements that God brings, and how they are received by established churches. Luther, John Wesley, the Anabaptists, were each renewal movements that evidently led to splits.

The most recent history in America, imo, would be the Jesus people movement that birthed the Calvary and Vineyard churches. All of a sudden these hippies were in churches. Or tongues were being spoken. Or other manifestations. Some pastors like Chuck Smith accepted them in. While other pastors wouldn't.

A movement I think cascaded after that (I'd be interested in Steve's opinion) is the charismatic renewal in the Pacific Northwest that seems to have started with Dennis Bennet. When my mom and others in my hometown became filled with the spirit, and wanted to be expressive in their worship, it created too much tension in my childhood Presbyterian and Lutheran churches, so they had to leave, and started a new church.

The problem, though, with moves of God, is people's natural tendency is to formalize whatever is going on. And the next thing you know, God needs a new movement to bring renewal and you suddenly find yourself the status quo that rejects what God is doing.

Also, institutionalization can breed abuses of power. Calvary and Vineyard have both been prone to that, though I don't dismiss the movements as a result. And I believe there has been correction received.

And of course the flesh. I've mentioned it here before. Something I need to get over at 48 years old. But this church I grew up in, with all these on fire christians, the "real" christians, because they believed in the holy spirit's continued work in power, who had been forced out of their churches because of what God was doing... have nearly all flamed out. Adultery multiple times over. My youth leaders look legal control of the child of their teen daughter. But then after she had gotten her life together, they refused to give him back to her. The indwelling of the spirit has been replaced by the indwelling of Fox News. Hell... one of the elders eventually left his wife, and after a succession of women, moved to central america because it was legal for him to marry his niece, and then either committed suicide or some suspicious circumstances occurred that may have been her killing him. The pastor who took over the church nursed it to health, and has been a close mentor of mine. At one point, I despaired and asked if anything good came from that movement. He said not that he could tell. I agree. But that is not to despise God's work. It's just that we are human vessels, and our churches are human vessels, and we can all too easily squander the work that God does in us.
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morbo3000
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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by morbo3000 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:28 am

What if we were all in the same church?

I guess the answer to that question is, it depends. It depends on what kind of church.

I church planted years ago, and desired the flexibility of beliefs that are represented on this board. The problem is, without some form of ecclesial authority, wolves came in and tried to convert everyone to their belief.

So, how would this mythical church handle the tension between doctrinal liberty and divisiveness. Would elders be given the authority to promote love, rather than allow dissension to lead into division. And even given the authority to ask people to leave? What about areas of disagreement over moral interpretations of the Bible? Divorce is an obvious old-school church problem that caused division. Of course now, it is LGBT affirming people like myself. (Don't get distracted.) Could this mythical church maintain unity with these tensions?

To reiterate: Could we all be in the same church? It depends on what kind of church.
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
JeffreyLong.net
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jasonmodar
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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by jasonmodar » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:51 pm

morbo3000 wrote: What about areas of disagreement over moral interpretations of the Bible?
John Piper's stance on Christian divorce and remarriage is that remarriage is biblically allowed only if the previous spouse is dead (I don't believe he's changed his views recently). He, however, served at his church (Bethlehem Baptist) alongside elders and leaders that did not share this conviction. I remember reading through Bethlehem Baptist's relational commitments around a year or so ago and was surprised to see what was written into those commitments. Here's what I read:
The leaders of Bethlehem are not entirely of one mind on the legitimate grounds for divorce and remarriage. For example, some of us see the Scripture forbidding remarriage after divorce as long as both spouses are living, no matter what the circumstances of the divorce were. We believe Jesus calls us in this way to the radical display of the unbreakable covenant commitment between Him and His church.

Others of us believe that the Scripture permits divorce under the limited circumstances of unrepentant adultery or decisive abandonment or protracted life endangerment. In these cases we believe the marriage truly ends and the reconciliation-desiring, aggrieved spouse is free to remarry in the Lord.
The relational commitments go on and iron out the details of the above quote. You can read them in their entirety at http://www.hopeingod.org/document/relat ... ommitments.

All of that to say it appears we may have an example of how to work through a difference in regards to a moral issue. It does make me wonder, though, how much of a conviction someone like Piper has about divorce and remarriage. If he does indeed believe the Bible forbids remarriage apart from the death of a spouse, why does he serve in leadership with people who "go against the Bible" and allow remarriage in other circumstances? Just thinking out loud.

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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by Singalphile » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:09 pm

I think it will require these important changes, above and before others:

1. Outwardly, we should focus on sending out evangelists, baptizing, and otherwise helping the poor (of all sorts).

2. Inwardly, we should focus almost exclusively on supporting and praying for each other, and exhorting, encouraging, and teaching each other to walk in the Spirit. That means giving and/or following sound instruction regarding our jobs, money, family, time, etc., so that we'll be equipped for every good work, in love, so that everyone may glorify God.

3. Regarding theology, we do need to know what we all believe (and why): God exists and rewards those who seek Him, and Jesus is the Son of God the Father, and the Messiah/Christ and our Lord, who lived in the flesh and died and rose again, and we all have sin. Those are the "essentials", according to the NT. Anyone who finds fault with any of that can be graciously shown the door (so to speak). Anyone who agrees is a brother or sister, unless of course he or she continues in sin, or approves of those who do, and will not listen to correction.

4. Those who share majority opinions on other theological matters should not be arrogant or boastful. Those how hold minority theological opinions should not argue. Do not stumble or hinder a brother by going beyond what is written or being puffed up. Divisiveness is a sin (Titus 3:10). Tame that restless tongue.

How does that happen? I'm not sure.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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dwight92070
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Re: What if we all were in the same church?

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:26 am

Singalphile,

Thanks for those edifying words!

Dwight

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