The Shack

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dwight92070
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Re: The Shack

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:44 pm

I'm using the word "submit" the way the dictionary defines it:

1. accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person

The 2nd meaning is "to present" (a report) or (a result), etc.

So are you telling me that Young is using the 2nd meaning or does he have a different meaning other than the dictionary's definition of "submit"?

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dwight92070
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Re: The Shack

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:58 pm

TK wrote:Jesus said he could have asked his Father to send ten legions of angels to rescue him. Would God have done so had Jesus asked, despite Gods plan for the ages? Or was Jesus not being truthful?
Dwight: It appears that Jesus was responding to Peter's drawing his sword to save Him from being arrested. If Jesus wanted to have His will done, He had all the power of heaven to keep Him from being arrested and crucified. But He says that if He did that, the scriptures would not be fulfilled. Matthew 26:54 So, instead of that He chose to submit to His Father's will.

Would God have fulfilled His request for 12 legions of angels, if He had asked for them? I guess you will have to ask Him that when you see Him.

Was Jesus being truthful? The answer is self-evident.

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mattrose
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Re: The Shack

Post by mattrose » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:59 pm

dwight92070 wrote:I'm using the word "submit" the way the dictionary defines it:

1. accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person

The 2nd meaning is "to present" (a report) or (a result), etc.

So are you telling me that Young is using the 2nd meaning or does he have a different meaning other than the dictionary's definition of "submit"?
I'm saying he's using that definition "To accept or yield... to the will of another person"

You're emphasizing an optional part of the definition (superior force, authority). The word "OR" indicates those parts are not always in play with the word submit.

God does that all the time
Last edited by mattrose on Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TK
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Re: The Shack

Post by TK » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:46 pm

There is forceful submission because a person in a power position can force the issue. The Israelites were forced into submission by the pharaohs for hundreds of years.

Then there is willful submission that should exist between spouses. Mutual submission is simply giving up your preference out of love.

All three persons of the Trinity are/is God; we can't forget that point. There is not one boss God and a foreman God and an assistant God. There is no indication that the Father orders Jesus what to do and Jesus tells the HS what to do. God does not have three "minds." There is one mind shared by three persons so there has to be a mutual submission.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Shack

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:10 pm

mattrose wrote:
dwight92070 wrote:I'm using the word "submit" the way the dictionary defines it:

1. accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person

The 2nd meaning is "to present" (a report) or (a result), etc.

So are you telling me that Young is using the 2nd meaning or does he have a different meaning other than the dictionary's definition of "submit"?
I'm saying he's using that definition "To accept or yield... to the will of another person"

You're emphasizing an option part of the definition (superior force, authority). The word "OR" indicates those parts are not always in play with the word submit.

God does that all the time
Dwight: You are misreading the definition. Nothing in the 1st meaning is optional. Specifically "superior force" and "authority" are on separate sides of the "OR", not on the same side. If they were on the same side, you would be right. They would be optional.

Dwight: There are 2 statements in the 1st meaning:

1. accept or yield to a superior force

OR

2. (accept or yield) to the authority of another person

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mattrose
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Re: The Shack

Post by mattrose » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:57 pm

dwight92070 wrote:You are misreading the definition. Nothing in the 1st meaning is optional. Specifically "superior force" and "authority" are on separate sides of the "OR", not on the same side. If they were on the same side, you would be right. They would be optional.
I stand by my previous statement and have nothing more to add because I think you are just reading the definition poorly. There are, indeed, various options in the 1st meaning. That's what 'or' means in each instance :)

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dwight92070
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Re: The Shack

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:00 pm

There are 2 options to the 1st meaning:

1. accept or yield to a superior force
OR
2. (accept or yield) to the authority of another person

When the Son submits to the Father, He is doing one or both of these things, which clearly designates the Father as either superior to OR an authority over the Son. If you simply dismiss the words "superior" and "authority" as only a possible option, then you have just removed the major part of the meaning of the word.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Shack

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:25 pm

Maybe you could identify the other options in the 1st meaning that I am not seeing.

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mattrose
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Re: The Shack

Post by mattrose » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:25 am

dwight92070 wrote:Maybe you could identify the other options in the 1st meaning that I am not seeing.
Here is the definition you provided...

Submit: To accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person

Thus, here are some possible variations provided in that definition
1. To accept the superior force of another person
2. To yield to the superior force of another person
3. To accept the authority of another person
4. To yield to the authority of another person
5. To accept the will of another person
6. To yield to the will of another person

Each 'or' provides potential variation
The 'accept' and 'yield' describes the posture of the person submitting (2 variations there)
The 'superior force' or 'authority' or 'will' describe the thing they are submitting to (3 variations there)
There are 6 variations because 2x3=6

If God 'submits' to human beings, God is clearly not submitting to a superior force... so variation 1 & 2 are out.

If God 'submits' to a human being, God is not submitting to an authority OVER God... though it could be said that God gives 'authorship' to human beings (God gives humans free will and the ability to bring realities into existence. This would be delegated authority). So in 1 sense 3 & 4 are out, but in another sense 3 & 4 could be argued for. It would depend on how one is using the word 'authority'.

But God clearly does 'submit' to the will of human beings (at times) in the sense that God 'accepts' or 'yields' to their will(s). God seemingly does this billions of times per day. So 5 & 6 are clearly examples where God submits to human beings.

In sum, you are correct to point out that God doesn't 'submit' to human beings in the sense of 1 & 2. Whether God submits to human beings in the sense of 3 & 4 is arguable. That God submits to human beings in the sense of 5 & 6 is inarguable.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Shack

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:23 am

Okay, thanks for clarifying that. I see where you are coming from now. I'm not sure if that changes any of my previously mentioned arguments, however. We could say that God submits to or yields to our will only when it is His will to do so, because we know that He does not always grant us everything we ask for. So, in that sense, we're both right.

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