DACA

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dwight92070
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DACA

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:15 pm

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. No other country in the world grants citizenship to illegal alien children, so why should we? Apparently all those other countries know something that we are ignorant of, or choose to ignore for the sake of so-called compassion. Once again, the "credit" goes to the leftist President Obama and his leftist Democrat party, for cramming their agenda down our throats, even though it robs from and overburdens Americans, by soaking up our tax dollars and stealing our jobs. Of course, their next step is the attempt to get their families to join them and eventually to solicit their votes. This is basically bribery and contempt for the laws of our land.

Apparently back when they crossed the border, the word got out that Obama was opening the border wide to children from Mexico and Latin American, so 800,000 of them illegally streamed across our border. I don't remember voting on this, do you? I don't remember anyone even asking my opinion on this, do you? I don't remember Congress voting on this. Obama never wanted the will of the American people, unless they agreed with him.

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dwight92070
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Re: DACA

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:21 pm

It's also worth noting that Obama did this in the last stage of his presidency, as if to say "take that America!" before exiting the stage, making it impossible for anyone to stop his crime.

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robbyyoung
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Re: DACA

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:06 pm

Hello Dwight,

I appreciate your great passion regarding DACA and immigration in general; however, I also greatly appreciate how Americans are able to reason through a political conundrum involving—then—children and—now—young adults of illegal aliens into the country. Although the rule of law must be protected, respected, and applied, America’s true greatness and exceptionalism resides in righteous justice and erring on the side of human dignity, life, and welfare.

America’s history shows and proves that not all laws are just. However, Americans are privileged to govern themselves—and through this process make reasonable changes to right the wrongs in our civilized society. Our government officials created this mess, and a strategic solution is now required. DACA must end for sure, but a pathway for legalizing these young adults, i.e., citizenship, green-card, etc., is the only reasonable option. Congress can solve any ambiguity if they so desire; but this will require them to actually work!

I hope the administration will get a comprehensive immigration bill passed. Until then, focus on getting the violent criminals out, then go after other priority criminals--leaving the soft-illegal aliens for last. I think this to be a reasonable beginning.

Blessing!
Last edited by robbyyoung on Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlepower
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Re: DACA

Post by Candlepower » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:44 am

Robbyyoung wrote
Congress can solve any ambiguity if they so desire; but this will require them to actually work!
That's correct. Obama dictated DACA via executive order and admitted at the time that his action was unconstitutional. Obama had sworn before God and America that he would obey and defend the Constitution. Obama's DACA was just another proof that he is a liar and a traitor.

By turning DACA over to Congress, President Trump has shown (at least in this instance) that he has a higher regard for the Constitution than Obama does. Obama called President Trump's action "cruel," which further revealed Obama's dictatorial mindset. He's dedicated to promoting his socialist agenda, so he despises the Constitution. I think that's cruel.

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robbyyoung
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Re: DACA

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:46 am

Candlepower wrote: Obama's DACA was just another proof that he is a liar and a traitor.
Hi Candlepower,

Hope and change was a fashionable battle cry for the "left". Indeed, the swing voters gave the Obama administration two-terms to deliver the "hope and change" promised during the election. Now the pendulum has swung to reverse the previous administration's policies. Thus far, the Trump Administration is sticking to the campaign promises that got him elected. He's being vehemently attacked by both parties, why? Because he's ignoring the establishment's agenda and instituting the people's agenda. In essence, most of Congress simply despise those who elected Trump into office, therefore, if the electorate is smart, they will remove these "so-called' representatives forever out of office in order to move the country forward.

Law making powers belong to Congress, Trump did the right thing and now the people get to hold their representatives accountable. Congress hates this little detail regarding their job. Let's drain the swamp!

Blessings.

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Candlepower
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Re: DACA

Post by Candlepower » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:14 pm

Amen and thumbs up, Robby!

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dwight92070
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Re: DACA

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:29 pm

[quote="robbyyoung"]Hello Dwight,
Although the rule of law must be protected, respected, and applied, America’s true greatness and exceptionalism resides in righteous justice and erring on the side of human dignity, life, and welfare.

Dwight: Please tell me what part of returning these kids back to their families is undignified and disrespectful of their lives and their welfare.

Our government officials created this mess,

Dwight: Wrong, only Obama and the Democrats created this mess. Why would you lump the Republicans and the conservatives in with the real lawbreakers?

and a strategic solution is now required. DACA must end for sure, but a pathway for legalizing these young adults, i.e., citizenship, green-card, etc., is the only reasonable option.

Dwight: Again, wrong. Your "solution" to this problem is to give Obama and the Democrat lawbreakers exactly what they want? You want to illegally put them on a road to legalization and citizenship, when thousands have gone through the process legally without breaking any laws? The best road to U.S. citizenship is to go back to their families and their countries, start from zero, and apply for citizenship the way hundreds of thousands of immigrants have done since the beginning of our country. I can see where there could be some exceptions. If an illegal married an American citizen, then their American spouse should be allowed to go back with them. If that country won't allow that, then we could make an exception, but in the mean time the illegal spouse should go through all legal channels to become a citizen.

I hope the administration will get a comprehensive immigration bill passed. Until then, focus on getting the violent criminals out, then go after other priority criminals--leaving the soft-illegal aliens for last. I think this to be a reasonable beginning.

Dwight: The soft-illegal aliens still committed a crime, whether they were too young to realize it or not. If a 3-year old takes merchandise from a store, he may not realize it, but he has committed a crime. Of course we don't lock him up, but he still must return the merchandise and possibly get a good scolding from his parents. Even so in this case, it is not unreasonable to have all illegal aliens go back to their families in their countries. The violent and other priority criminals among them should be given the appropriate punishment here and then returned to their own country.

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robbyyoung
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Re: DACA

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:41 pm

Ok, so where should I start? I'll begin with, hi Dwight, I hope your having a blessed day. Hopefully my response will add some value to the discussion.
dwight92070 wrote:Please tell me what part of returning these kids back to their families is undignified and disrespectful of their lives and their welfare.
Because although life isn't fair, the most vulnerable in a "civilized society" should be protected against unreasonable thoughts and ideas. I guess it depends on one's definition of compassion verses contempt or ill-will towards the less fortunate. America will prove to be greater than its problems, as it has done in the past regarding this same issue. America is not cold-hearted as Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc.; our laws can and should be modified when extenuating circumstances exist or persist. I thank God for that little gem called discretion.
dwight92070 wrote:Wrong, only Obama and the Democrats created this mess. Why would you lump the Republicans and the conservatives in with the real lawbreakers?
Wow! Republicans are just as guilty as the Democrats regarding protecting our borders and preserving a robust and legal immigration policy. Two GOP Presidents gave us amnesty for illegal aliens, Reagan and Bush Sr. Most people know of Reagan's deeds, but few people know of what Bush Sr. accomplished with his Executive Order (EO)--sort of resembles DACA by expounding on Reagan's limited amnesty. Also, George W. Presidency did nothing about immigration for 8 years! If you want to be consistent Dwight, all those who came into the country illegally and was deferred deportation by Bush Sr.'s EO back in 1990 should be rounded up as well. Well that's not going to happen and neither will the DACA recipients.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... g-history/
dwight92070 wrote:Again, wrong. Your "solution" to this problem is to give Obama and the Democrat lawbreakers exactly what they want? You want to illegally put them on a road to legalization and citizenship, when thousands have gone through the process legally without breaking any laws? The best road to U.S. citizenship is to go back to their families and their countries, start from zero, and apply for citizenship the way hundreds of thousands of immigrants have done since the beginning of our country. I can see where there could be some exceptions. If an illegal married an American citizen, then their American spouse should be allowed to go back with them. If that country won't allow that, then we could make an exception, but in the mean time the illegal spouse should go through all legal channels to become a citizen.
I see, so even you are not tone deaf to concessions regarding the matter--interesting. So how about we let the law-makers finally fix the problem, make reasonable concessions, and show the world how different we really are.
dwight92070 wrote:The soft-illegal aliens still committed a crime, whether they were too young to realize it or not. If a 3-year old takes merchandise from a store, he may not realize it, but he has committed a crime. Of course we don't lock him up, but he still must return the merchandise and possibly get a good scolding from his parents. Even so in this case, it is not unreasonable to have all illegal aliens go back to their families in their countries. The violent and other priority criminals among them should be given the appropriate punishment here and then returned to their own country.
We have many, many laws on the books in which the criminal justice system use discretionary measures to either enforce or not. Your almost zero tolerance discretion may prove to be unreasonable. The law is the law, right? Well if it wasn't for humans having compassionate discretion, unlike a robot without feelings or the capacity to empathize, the world would be virtually unbearable to live in. No, I opt for discretion in this matter of soft-illegal aliens "breaking the law". Reagan and Bush thought so, and so do I.

Blessings.

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dwight92070
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Re: DACA

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:58 pm

Because although life isn't fair, the most vulnerable in a "civilized society" should be protected against unreasonable thoughts and ideas. I guess it depends on one's definition of compassion verses contempt or ill-will towards the less fortunate. America will prove to be greater than its problems, as it has done in the past regarding this same issue. America is not cold-hearted as Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc.

Dwight: Since when is it unreasonable and cold-hearted to send children back to their own parents, uncles, aunts, siblings, cousins, etc. in their own native country?
dwight92070 wrote:Wrong, only Obama and the Democrats created this mess. Why would you lump the Republicans and the conservatives in with the real lawbreakers?
Wow! Republicans are just as guilty as the Democrats regarding protecting our borders and preserving a robust and legal immigration policy.

Dwight: I don't deny that those Republican presidents are guilty, on a much smaller scale, of illegal actions concerning illegal immigrants. I don't know the details of those actions, but, at first glance, I would not agree with what they did either. But I thought we were referring to this specific case which is called DACA, instituted by Obama in 2012. I don't see Republican fingerprints on this. In fact, why would the Republican Party put forward a candidate who had "building the wall" as a major part of his campaign, if they approved of open borders, as Democrats do?

Dwight: No, if Bush Sr. granted amnesty to illegals back in 1990 (I guess it was 140,000 of them), I am not advocating that now, almost 28 years later, that they should be deported. There is such a thing as a statute of limitation on past lawbreaking. That's water under the bridge. Obama's lawbreaking was just 5 years ago. It's not too late to at least attempt to make it right.

We have many, many laws on the books in which the criminal justice system use discretionary measures to either enforce or not.

Dwight: Haven't you ever seen the statue of Lady Justice wearing a blindfold? That means she shows no partiality to rich or poor, young or old. Justice in this country historically is not meted out based on the judge's emotions or compassion. That's what the left wants, but that is detrimental to our country. We have lefties wanting to show compassion to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, child molesters, etc.

Your almost zero tolerance discretion may prove to be unreasonable. The law is the law, right?

Dwight: Actually, your no-penalty, let's give them all citizenship "solution" is what is truly unreasonable. That is not compassion. That is being complicit in the crime.

Dwight: If only a hundred people crossed the border illegally, I could see lessening the penalty. But when 800,000 people commit a crime, the same crime, that is not the time to ignore the laws of the land. On the contrary, if we allow this trend of so-called compassion to continue, this country will soon be unbearable to live in. That is out-of-control lawbreaking.

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robbyyoung
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DACA

Post by robbyyoung » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:32 am

Hi Dwight,

Thanks for the discussion, however, I believe you're kind of misrepresenting my statements, as well as painting with a broad brush what should be meticulously meted out.
dwight92070 wrote:Since when is it unreasonable and cold-hearted to send children back to their own parents, uncles, aunts, siblings, cousins, etc. in their own native country?
It's not unreasonable, in general. But, when years have passed by and these children are now rooted in the country, it is very much unreasonable. Even the most conservative outlet in the country, National Review, believes rhetoric involving deportation of rooted children is nonsense.

by MARK KRIKORIAN May 8, 2014 "Although I disagree as a matter of policy, the idea that an illegal has put down roots here after three years, and thus shouldn’t be deported, at least makes a certain kind of sense. But to exempt an illegal alien from deportation simply because he snuck in at least 15 days ago is surreal."

Article: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/37 ... -krikorian
dwight92070 wrote:I don't deny that those Republican presidents are guilty, on a much smaller scale, of illegal actions concerning illegal immigrants. I don't know the details of those actions, but, at first glance, I would not agree with what they did either. But I thought we were referring to this specific case which is called DACA, instituted by Obama in 2012. I don't see Republican fingerprints on this. In fact, why would the Republican Party put forward a candidate who had "building the wall" as a major part of his campaign, if they approved of open borders, as Democrats do?
First of all, border security and dealing with the misdemeanor crime of being an illegal alien is not the same problem. Building the wall discourages illegal entry for sure, but illegal aliens who have been rooted in the country, for years, is a different problem altogether. If their only crime is this one misdemeanor, like Jay-Walking, America doesn't exacerbate the problem years later with injustice, as if a homicide occurred. Secondly, DACA is nothing new. It's the same temporary deferment policy, like Bush Sr.'s EO, to kick the problem back to Congress, why? Because America will not exacerbate the problem over a silly misdemeanor crime that took place several years ago. Congress must do their job.
dwight92070 wrote:No, if Bush Sr. granted amnesty to illegals back in 1990 (I guess it was 140,000 of them), I am not advocating that now, almost 28 years later, that they should be deported. There is such a thing as a statute of limitation on past lawbreaking. That's water under the bridge. Obama's lawbreaking was just 5 years ago. It's not too late to at least attempt to make it right.
Actually, the statue of limitations concerns prosecution for the crime. However, there is no statue of limitations on deportation. In other words, illegal aliens will be exempt from going through our court system, but if caught by immigration officials, they can be deported. So again, you agree with me and National Review, concessions for those rooted in the country, after committing a misdemeanor offense years ago, is in fact reasonable. You say five-years is unacceptable, and the children should booted out. Well, a broad brush approach is also unacceptable and roots that have grown for five-years could be substantial.
dwight92070 wrote:Dwight: Haven't you ever seen the statue of Lady Justice wearing a blindfold? That means she shows no partiality to rich or poor, young or old. Justice in this country historically is not meted out based on the judge's emotions or compassion. That's what the left wants, but that is detrimental to our country. We have lefties wanting to show compassion to murderers, rapists, kidnappers, child molesters, etc.


Dwight, judges have compassion all the time in their court room. They reduce sentences, dismiss charges, etc... So you're just wrong on this point. You're seemingly trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. We are talking about a misdemeanor crime. Since when do we treat these crimes as high crimes? Lastly, let's not conflate or confuse the discussion with murderers, rapists, kidnappers, and child molesters to the children in question. I believe it's more beneficial to stay on topic with the specifics of the DACA and soft-illigel aliens issue.
dwight92070 wrote:Actually, your no-penalty, let's give them all citizenship "solution" is what is truly unreasonable. That is not compassion. That is being complicit in the crime.
So when did I say, no-penalty or give them all citizenship? You say, I'm being complicit to a crime? Ok, I'm guilty. But are you so innocent? Have you ever seen the misdemeanor crime of reckless driving? Do you report every incident to your local police or did you get the license plate? How about yourself? Have you ever been reckless while driving? Did you turn yourself in? This is just one example of hundreds of misdemeanor crimes we see take place daily. So the police use discretion, I use it, and so do you. I think it's disingenuous to cry complicity to the crime at hand.
dwight92070 wrote:If only a hundred people crossed the border illegally, I could see lessening the penalty. But when 800,000 people commit a crime, the same crime, that is not the time to ignore the laws of the land. On the contrary, if we allow this trend of so-called compassion to continue, this country will soon be unbearable to live in. That is out-of-control lawbreaking.
Dwight, you act as if all these people magically crossed the border, yesterday, at the same time. This particular crime was years in the making. Additionally, I'm not advocating for this trend to continue. I'm advocating that we fix our immigration blunders and at the same time not exacerbate a misdemeanor crime that took place years ago. The tradition is that we defer until Congress fix the problem. Until recently, the border was still porous; now, everyone is being turned back or returned to their country. However, we still have to deal with the humanitarian issue of those rooted in the country. Again, if their only crime is the first misdemeanor offense from years past, it is unreasonable to kick them out of the country.

Blessings.
Last edited by robbyyoung on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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