Evil as a created thing

[robbyyoung]

Hi Darin,

Yes, I made mention of it. What's important is that you gleaned some truth from your post, in spite of my distraction. We can all be thankful for that.

God bless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Robby Young
U.S. Army Retired

[Paidion]

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity (ESV)

Does God actually CREATE darkness? We read in Genesis that He created light, but nothing about the creation of darkness. But after light was created, there was darkness in all places where there was no light. Perhaps in creating light, darkness had to exist. Perhaps it can be compared to a geometric construction of an equilateral triangle. Anyone who has constructed such a triangle has also constructed an equangular triangle. It is impossible to construct the former without it being the latter.

This ESV gives a good rendering of "shalom." The word means more than "peace", but "well-being" in every sense of the word: health, peace, prosperity, etc.
God creates well-being. But in place where there is no well-being, there is calamity. Perhaps God doesn't actually CREATE the calamity any more than He creates darkness. But in creating well-being in some places, perhaps calamity naturally exists in other places.

[robbyyoung]

I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity (ESV)

Does God actually CREATE darkness? We read in Genesis that He created light, but nothing about the creation of darkness. But after light was created, there was darkness in all places where there was no light. Perhaps in creating light, darkness had to exist. Perhaps it can be compared to a geometric construction of an equilateral triangle. Anyone who has constructed such a triangle has also constructed an equangular triangle. It is impossible to construct the former without it being the latter.

This ESV gives a good rendering of "shalom." The word means more than "peace", but "well-being" in every sense of the word: health, peace, prosperity, etc.
God creates well-being. But in place where there is no well-being, there is calamity. Perhaps God doesn't actually CREATE the calamity any more than He creates darkness. But in creating well-being in some places, perhaps calamity naturally exists in other places.

Hi Paidon,

I also noticed that the hebrew word "choshek" for darkness can also mean obscurity or secret place. But I do believe whatever the case may be, God did actually create it.

God Bless.

[Paidion]

Greetings Robby,

The word in the Greek Septuagint, which may better represent the original Hebrew than the later Masoretic Hebrew text, is σκοτια. That word means "darkness."

[dizerner]

You know the Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew are at least as old if not older than the Septuagint? Not to downplay the LXX but it's not older than an extant Hebrew MSS.

[Paidion]

You know the Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew are at least as old if not older than the Septuagint? Not to downplay the LXX but it's not older than an extant Hebrew MSS.

To which extant Hebrew MSS do you refer?

The Greek Septuagint translation from Hebrew dates from the 3rd and 2nd centuries B.C. The Hebrew Masoretic text from which your Old Testament was translated dates from the 7th to 10th centuries A.D. Although the Septuagint has been slightly altered over the centuries, the quotes from the Old Testament found in the New Testament are identical or nearly identical to the Septuagint. They dramatically differ in most respects from the Masoretic text.

The Hebrew of Cave 4 from the Qumran caves is similar to the text of the Septuagint.

Let me give you a couple of examples out of DOZENS:

Example 1:
What God Has Sworn will happen (from Isaiah 45:23)

From the RSV translation of the Masoretic Text: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

From the Septuagint text of Isaiah 45:23 with a literal translation:

ὁτι ἐμοι καυψει παν γονυ και ἐξομολογησεται πασα γλωσσα τῳ θεῳ
that to me shall bow every knee and shall confess every tongue to God.

Paul’s quote in Rom 14:11 with a literal translation:

ὁτι ἐμοι καυψει παν γονυ και πασα γλωσσα ἐξομολογησεται τῳ θεῳ
that to me shall bow every knee and every tongue shall confess to God.

The words of Paul's quote in Greek are identical to those of the Septuagint in its present form; the word order is slightly different.

Example 2:
How many descendants did Jacob have, according to translation of the Masoretic text which you find in your Bible?

Here are two passages as rendered from the Masoretic text by the King James translators:

And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.(AV)

And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already. (Exodus 1:5 AV)

Now let's see what a translation of the Septuagint renders these verses:

And the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in the land of Egypt, were nine souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came with Joseph into Egypt, were seventy-five souls. (Gen 46:27)

But Joseph was in Egypt. And all the souls born of Jacob were seventy-five. (Exodus 1:5)

And from the ancient Hebrew text of Cave 4 at Qumran:
And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy-five souls and Joseph was in Egypt already. (Exodus 1:5)

And finally, what did Stephen say about it, as Luke the writer of Acts recorded?

And Joseph sent and summoned Jacob his father and all his kindred, seventy-five persons in all. (Acts 7:14)

Do you wonder why I trust the Septuagint above that of the Masoretic Hebrew?

The Old Testament of the Orthodox Study Bible is translated in its entirety from the Septuagint. It's the only modern Bible that does so.

Again, there are DOZENS of quotes from the Old Testament which are found in the New. ALL of them are identical or highly similar to the extant text of the Septuagint. They differ markedly from the Masoretic text from which the Old Testament of your Bible was translated.

[steve7150]

Does God actually CREATE darkness? We read in Genesis that He created light, but nothing about the creation of darkness. But after light was created, there was darkness in all places where there was no light. Perhaps in creating light, darkness had to exist. Perhaps it can be compared to a geometric construction of an equilateral triangle. Anyone who has constructed such a triangle has also constructed an equangular triangle. It is impossible to construct the former without it being the latter.








Yes it appears by the laws God created that when you create one thing , the opposite thing automatically seems to come into existence. So although God didn't directly create evil it seems to be a natural (laws of nature?) consequence or natural contrast to good. That seems to apply to everything like love and hate , light and dark, etc and perhaps why we must endure evil to learn good by the contrast.

[dizerner]

To which extant Hebrew MSS do you refer?

Those found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. I assumed I made that pretty clear...

Do you wonder why I trust the Septuagint above that of the Masoretic Hebrew?

No, not really. I wonder why you wouldn't trust a Hebrew manuscript of around the same age over a Greek one.

The Old Testament of the Orthodox Study Bible is translated in its entirety from the Septuagint. It's the only modern Bible that does so.

No, there's many modern English translations of the LXX.

Again, there are DOZENS of quotes from the Old Testament which are found in the New. ALL of them are identical or highly similar to the extant text of the Septuagint. They differ markedly from the Masoretic text from which the Old Testament of your Bible was translated.

Most of the early believers knew Greek but not Hebrew. We can show many places where the LXX makes very blatant and obvious errors. Need to be careful always putting it first.

[Paidion]

The Old Testament of the Orthodox Study Bible is translated in its entirety from the Septuagint. It's the only modern Bible that does so.

No, there's many modern English translations of the LXX.

In the above quote, I wasn't writing about translations of the Septuagint. I was writing about BIBLES. Other than the Orthodox Bible, what modern Bible version do you know that has the Old Testament translated from the Septuagint? Again, like the Atonement thread, I think we are derailing the purpose of the thread. If we want to discuss this matter further, let's start a thread dedicated to that purpose.