Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

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TheEditor
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by TheEditor » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:18 am


The OP invited embracers of Full Preterism to comment, initially. Which means Doug and Robby--and maybe RickC, but he's a bit of a Maverick so who knows. But this is how the brush-up started. I wrote:

I rarely say this, because generally I find the posts well thought out, but I find this kind of humorous. As if any eschatological view would have made humans reaction to Jesus' ministry while in the spirit (post AD 33) any different to the reaction to his ministry while in the flesh. It has always been the matter of "He is a good man"; "No, but he misleads the people"--"Hossanah" one day, "Crucify him" the next. Men spin their webs of control and engage in intrigues quite apart from any true faith. If a person has true faith in God and Christ, their lives will produce good fruit apart from their eschatological paradigm. And the last time I checked, Israel was 80% agnostic....so there you go.



To which Doug replied:

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that no matter what doctrine people follow, if they are believers they will bear good fruit?



And I reiterate for Doug, Robby, Matt and any others who care to chime in; Eschatological paradigms should ALWAYS take a back seat to a person's true walk with God. I have met Futurists that live badly, plan unwisely--and I have met others that don't. Remember, I was raised in a group that believed that the end was CLOSE--Always. I feel more competent than most to comment on how a person lives when viewing the future that way. And guess what? There were PLENTY of JWs that went about their daily lives without a halt or a blush and you would have thought that they believed that this world was going to continue on just as it always had. Even the group pressure aspect of this paradigm didn't make them decide any differently on their life course. Others, well, they went all out because the end was 'just around the corner'.

So YES, Doug, and any others that may care, I do believe a person can bear good fruit irrespective of their eschatological paradigm, and I do believe that if one's eschatology is not just an ancillary part of their walk with God, then I question whether there is much of a 'walk' at all. I can tell you for a fact that I have known Furturists (imminent return of Jesus types) who embraced Preterism because someone turned them on to a book like "When Jerusalem Fell" or some such thing, who went from Christianity to unbelief in the space of a year. Why? Because their eschatology WAS their walk, and once that little plastic stick was pulled out. all the marbles went Kerplunk!

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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mattrose
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by mattrose » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:40 am

TheEditor wrote: I reiterate for Doug, Robby, Matt and any others who care to chime in; Eschatological paradigms should ALWAYS take a back seat to a person's true walk with God.


Of course. I am in no disagreement with you here.
I have met Futurists that live badly, plan unwisely--and I have met others that don't. Remember, I was raised in a group that believed that the end was CLOSE--Always. I feel more competent than most to comment on how a person lives when viewing the future that way. And guess what? There were PLENTY of JWs that went about their daily lives without a halt or a blush and you would have thought that they believed that this world was going to continue on just as it always had. Even the group pressure aspect of this paradigm didn't make them decide any differently on their life course. Others, well, they went all out because the end was 'just around the corner'.
No doubt, many people do not connect their stated beliefs with actions! But that is really a different point altogether. The point I was making is that if you REALLY believe certain things about the end-times... it WILL impact some components of your life. Eschatology, because it is PART OF one's walk with Christ (understanding some of His words a certain way), will impact areas like a person's relationship to the environment, to Israel, to short & long-term planning, etc.
So YES, Doug, and any others that may care, I do believe a person can bear good fruit irrespective of their eschatological paradigm, and I do believe that if one's eschatology is not just an ancillary part of their walk with God, then I question whether there is much of a 'walk' at all. I can tell you for a fact that I have known Furturists (imminent return of Jesus types) who embraced Preterism because someone turned them on to a book like "When Jerusalem Fell" or some such thing, who went from Christianity to unbelief in the space of a year. Why? Because their eschatology WAS their walk, and once that little plastic stick was pulled out. all the marbles went Kerplunk!
Again, I agree with this point. I think we are just emphasizing different points. You are emphasizing the point that eschatology should not become the center of anyone's Christian life (I agree). I am emphasizing that eschatology is a part of the Christian life and often does make an impact on how we live (for good or bad). It's too easy to just say 'focus on the Lord, not eschatology.' The Lord talked about such matters :)

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:09 pm

Hi Matt, my response is in RED.
mattrose wrote:My 2 cents...

I think there are 2 theological paradigms that have played a role in some of the tragedies you speak of

APATHY
One theological paradigm that sometimes causes apathy is determinism. The idea that the blueprint has already been made and will be followed precisely no matter what causes people not to get involved, positively, in changing history.

AGGRESSIVENESS
One theological paradigm that sometimes causes aggressiveness is Zionism. The idea that certain things have to happen for the dispensational model to play out has caused some to try to force those things to happen.

Personally, I can't even imagine a scenario where the whole world embraced full-preterism since, in my opinion, it is so unconvincing. Any good 'NOW AND NOT YET' theology has all the advantages of full preterism without its obvious deficiencies. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every indication of the "Already" was in the 1st Century (Yeshua and Apostolic ministry), and the "Not Yet" was implied to be consummated within that same generation. I don't see how a world wide embrace of partial-preterism would be any worse off in resolving the issues you raised (like atheists rejecting faith b/c of unfulfilled prophecy). Partial Preterism WILL NOT and CAN NOT end a Zionist mentality in the world. Again, this mindset IS IN-FACT affecting societies in the world, especially The Middle East. Consistency is what separates Partial from Full Preterism, but that's another thread, topic, etc... Matt, thanks for the Apathy/Aggressiveness outline. This happens on both a Micro and Macro level in the world, through ordinary citizens and political leaders, effecting change via a vision, mission statement or both.
God Bless.

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:38 pm

Matt and Brenden,

I enjoyed reading your last discourse, trying to find common ground in the discussion. I believe Matt is more grounded concerning the issue as it relates to governmental or political involvement. But I'm reminded of John the Baptist and Yeshua's proclamation "REPENT, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" An entire NATION's fate was set in motion regarding this statement. What you believe regarding "what is at hand" matters. The futurist perspective continues to preach to the world, "AT HAND or Coming Soon". The question is, would we be better off preaching, WE HAVE ARRIVED!". How would this affect change in The Middle East? For example, would America fear God's judgment on Her for parting-ways with Israel's beliefs? This futuristic belief is very much center stage in our foreign policy.

Matt, I noticed you said that FP is so unconvincing. Alright, maybe to you, but please answer me this - Was it unconvincing to Yeshua, The Apostles and the 1st Century Church THEY were in The Last Days, They would experience the resurrection, judgment and Rapture? I'm curious to know your thoughts. Were they wrong, confused, or both? Because this thread speaks to the point, their belief in these things had enormous effects on their lives and the Jewish Nation as a whole.

God Bless.

dizerner

Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by dizerner » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:46 pm

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robbyyoung
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:23 pm

Hi dizerner,

I will try to accommodate your request and comment outside your post ;) .
dizerner wrote:Christ specifically told them no one knows the time of his return, so why are you acting like they did? Christians are taught to "live ready to go" and it seems to me, that saying it's not so, does not help us overcome the temptation to "love not the world nor the things in it." After all if Christ already came, why have urgency, why not start loving this world again...

(btw Robby no offense intended but I could really follow your replies better if they weren't embedded in the original posts.)
dizerner wrote:Christ specifically told them no one knows the time of his return, so why are you acting like they did?
Myself, nor any other Preterist apologetic affirms this? The day or the hour, IS NOT the focus. The Disciples were given signs to look for in order TO KNOW when the end WAS NEAR. This is what every Preterist affirms, which is in complete harmony with every scripture reference regarding the signs Yeshua spoke of that THE DISCIPLES would and DID CONFIRM, that IN-FACT, the end was NEAR. We know from history that the Day and the Hour was set when the seige took place and the unbelieving was caught within the City and perished.
dizerner wrote:Christians are taught to "live ready to go" and it seems to me, that saying it's not so, does not help us overcome the temptation to "love not the world nor the things in it."
These statements by Yeshua and others were in the context of the pending last days to those in the 1st Century. These statements had relvance to events which was to transpire in the audience's lifetime. We can apply Godly principles to our lives, BUT NOT the events surrounding them.

Hopefully this clarified some things, God Bless :) .

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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat May 09, 2015 8:23 pm

Here's another example of a representative dictating policy within 'The Futurist" paradigm. Again, what eschatological view you hold matters, and matters greatly if you have the power or ability to employ those beliefs on a mass scale.

Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann
January 3, 2007 – January 3, 2015

Bachmann is a member of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Financial Services Committee. She has taken the opportunity of serving on the Intelligence Committee to regularly advocate for peace through strength to ensure America’s national security.

Said this:

“It’s just like the Bible forewarned: in the last days it will be like the beginning of birth pangs. In my opinion, we are far beyond the beginning of birth pangs. We’re moving far down into the process. For women who are listening to this show today, you know what I’m talking about. What it’s like to deliver a baby at the very beginning stages and then at the very end before the baby is born. All I can tell you as a mom who has given birth to five babies, the birth pangs are very close together, they are very intense now and we are literally watching month by month the speed move up to a level we’ve never seen before with these events. Barack Obama is intent, it is his number one goal, to ensure that Iran has a nuclear weapon. Why? Why would you put the nuclear weapon in the hands of mad men?”

She then said that we should rejoice that we are in these days because the end of days means that Jesus is coming back!

Listen to the clip here:

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/20/michele ... socialflow

And if that wasn't enough listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3LD9F6uq0

This is just one of many policy makers dictating policy based on their eschatological beliefs!

God Bless.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Full Preterism Could Have Changed The World?

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:42 am

Hello All,

Faulty eschatology matters in this world. Throughout this thread its been shown how errant understanding concerning "last days" events could facilitate turmoil, hatred, and governmental policies in support of a climatic ideology. Brother Preston released a provocative video that really highlights this systemic problem in our world. Therefore, I thought it appropriate to post it here for your listening pleasure and comment.

https://youtu.be/mwyNPTekt0Y?list=PLhTk ... 3sdWHZw4mB

God Bless!

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